Listen | Was it all just an elaborate tax dodge? What are the ethical implications of billionaire philanthropy on this scale? And what does it mean for the future of our democratic institutions?
That really made me think. I have been saying for ages that Elon Musk shouldn't be able to determine how our future looks - that we should all drive electric cars (and not develop mass public transport), that the public focus is on space travel and not on equality. The difference is, I think, that our political systems use science to inform decisions - when it comes to environmental issues. They may be diluted but ultimately science is the acknowledged basis in policy. If we trust science as a nation then we must also understand that science is telling us that we must massively reduce our impacts and change how we live to be just to future generations and the more than human. Based on this - the benefits of this philanthropy (Patagonia's) are for everything and everyone (not just a small sector of society).
I also think that, although the money is relatively small compared to government input, it is targeted at grass roots organisations as well as protest groups etc. These are the people who will initially bring the conversation to the table - XR, Just Stop Oil. Whatever people think about the methods - their actions are causing the conversation. They don't have the same funding as governments.
I really enjoyed this episode - lots to think about and a lot that resonated for me, and very topical. These are the issues we need to be sorting out... a lot of similar ideas to Jon Alexander's 'Citizens', on local community action and moving away from consumptive capitalism. Will be going back for another listen! :0)
Another great episode. I was listening to talking head on CNN this morning before the big inauguration. He essentially said that the progressives in the US tend to still believe in norms and laws. Conservatives are more comfortable living in the tension of skirting those norms to get what they want (power, personal wealth, agenda setting, etc). "The Announcement" by Patagonia isn't illegal by any means and might be what is needed because there's a lot of money on the other side of the climate change action issue, but it walks the line of the norms of philanthropy and even progressive politics and that makes folks nervous. Do you operate in the realities of the world as it is? Do you fight on the issue pragmatically or do you fight the whole system? Patagonia already sits in a lot of tensions for many people when we look at consumption and product production but I think they show a lot of leadership in slower, long term system change. Nobody is the villain in their own story but my read of Ryan Gellert is that he's well aware of these tensions and Yvon seems to embrace them.
I’ve given this episode a second listen this morning, which feels very appropriate. On a day when we can see clearly, where concentrating wealth and power in the hands of the few will end up. Today, Oxfam's latest inequality report states that the wealth of billionaires grew by $2trillion last year, which is a staggering $5.7bn a day. All of which makes Imandeep’s contribution to this conversation so important, ‘the philanthropic industrial complex, as I like to refer to it as, it’s a cycle of the patterns of the economy that we absolutely have to, and should, over many hundreds of years have dismantled, to be, in Kate’s words, much more distributive in design…” Which leaves me in a place where I’d feel more excitement about the “announcement’ if there was some really transparency about how these funds could end up supporting work like Immy’s. Putting this money into political lobbying is not going to support a rise of power from below, all it does is create more barriers.
Congratulations on this work, Matt! It's wonderful to hear it out in the world after so much hard work. Given how much discussions of American billionaire oligarchs have been threaded through political discussion this week, you could not have planned the release of this episode at a better time if you tried!! I love how slowly you run through the contradiction that shapes any form of philanthropy - that when it comes to people are using their extreme wealth to bypass governments and democratic institutions to spend that wealth on causes that support, we can't applaud it when it seems to suit us and then decry it when it's The Other Side (ie Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg, etc, etc, etc). None of them should be accruing control of the kind of endless, self-perpetuating wealth that even allows them to distribute it in ways they choose, especially when it comes to influence elections in their own or other countries.
Also, what a great score! It's like a little nod to Succession, but without being so menacing or hinting at dysfunction (I'm so sorry but I couldn't find the composer and producers name to credit him here!)
Congrats again and I'm looking forward to keeping on listening and can't wait to hear all your reflections on how what you've learned along the way has impacted you. I mean, the re-structuring of your own business gives a good sense of what an impact all the research has had.
I know the timing wasn't on purpose I guess. But with the changes happening right now and what we just saw behind Trump. There isn't a better time to question the corporate philanthropy!
I loved listening to this episode and getting the various sides explaining what they thought of this move. It is interesting to notice that part about as long as it is for a greater good according to our minds we will agree with that individual getting political and once it doesn't suit our views we will disagree, protest and more. This is definitely the kind of trigger showing us we need a change for this so it doesn't come from the oligarchs anymore in the future.
I am looking forward to the future feedback from Patagonia itself about it.
On the production side: Huge congrats on this second episode!
Absolutely fascinating and thoroughly thought provoking episode Matt. Great work.
Thank you Demi!
That really made me think. I have been saying for ages that Elon Musk shouldn't be able to determine how our future looks - that we should all drive electric cars (and not develop mass public transport), that the public focus is on space travel and not on equality. The difference is, I think, that our political systems use science to inform decisions - when it comes to environmental issues. They may be diluted but ultimately science is the acknowledged basis in policy. If we trust science as a nation then we must also understand that science is telling us that we must massively reduce our impacts and change how we live to be just to future generations and the more than human. Based on this - the benefits of this philanthropy (Patagonia's) are for everything and everyone (not just a small sector of society).
I also think that, although the money is relatively small compared to government input, it is targeted at grass roots organisations as well as protest groups etc. These are the people who will initially bring the conversation to the table - XR, Just Stop Oil. Whatever people think about the methods - their actions are causing the conversation. They don't have the same funding as governments.
Thanks for the brain stimulation.
Ha, inspiring brain stimulation was the whole idea. Thanks for listening to closely, and for the really thoughtful comment
I really enjoyed this episode - lots to think about and a lot that resonated for me, and very topical. These are the issues we need to be sorting out... a lot of similar ideas to Jon Alexander's 'Citizens', on local community action and moving away from consumptive capitalism. Will be going back for another listen! :0)
Thank you Katie
Another great episode. I was listening to talking head on CNN this morning before the big inauguration. He essentially said that the progressives in the US tend to still believe in norms and laws. Conservatives are more comfortable living in the tension of skirting those norms to get what they want (power, personal wealth, agenda setting, etc). "The Announcement" by Patagonia isn't illegal by any means and might be what is needed because there's a lot of money on the other side of the climate change action issue, but it walks the line of the norms of philanthropy and even progressive politics and that makes folks nervous. Do you operate in the realities of the world as it is? Do you fight on the issue pragmatically or do you fight the whole system? Patagonia already sits in a lot of tensions for many people when we look at consumption and product production but I think they show a lot of leadership in slower, long term system change. Nobody is the villain in their own story but my read of Ryan Gellert is that he's well aware of these tensions and Yvon seems to embrace them.
I have a lot of sympathy for this perspective. Thanks Rick.
I’ve given this episode a second listen this morning, which feels very appropriate. On a day when we can see clearly, where concentrating wealth and power in the hands of the few will end up. Today, Oxfam's latest inequality report states that the wealth of billionaires grew by $2trillion last year, which is a staggering $5.7bn a day. All of which makes Imandeep’s contribution to this conversation so important, ‘the philanthropic industrial complex, as I like to refer to it as, it’s a cycle of the patterns of the economy that we absolutely have to, and should, over many hundreds of years have dismantled, to be, in Kate’s words, much more distributive in design…” Which leaves me in a place where I’d feel more excitement about the “announcement’ if there was some really transparency about how these funds could end up supporting work like Immy’s. Putting this money into political lobbying is not going to support a rise of power from below, all it does is create more barriers.
Thanks Gav. The transparency question is crucial, and something I intend to come back to.
Congratulations on this work, Matt! It's wonderful to hear it out in the world after so much hard work. Given how much discussions of American billionaire oligarchs have been threaded through political discussion this week, you could not have planned the release of this episode at a better time if you tried!! I love how slowly you run through the contradiction that shapes any form of philanthropy - that when it comes to people are using their extreme wealth to bypass governments and democratic institutions to spend that wealth on causes that support, we can't applaud it when it seems to suit us and then decry it when it's The Other Side (ie Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg, etc, etc, etc). None of them should be accruing control of the kind of endless, self-perpetuating wealth that even allows them to distribute it in ways they choose, especially when it comes to influence elections in their own or other countries.
Also, what a great score! It's like a little nod to Succession, but without being so menacing or hinting at dysfunction (I'm so sorry but I couldn't find the composer and producers name to credit him here!)
Congrats again and I'm looking forward to keeping on listening and can't wait to hear all your reflections on how what you've learned along the way has impacted you. I mean, the re-structuring of your own business gives a good sense of what an impact all the research has had.
Thanks so much Rebecca, and yes Ben did an amazing job with the score.
I know the timing wasn't on purpose I guess. But with the changes happening right now and what we just saw behind Trump. There isn't a better time to question the corporate philanthropy!
I loved listening to this episode and getting the various sides explaining what they thought of this move. It is interesting to notice that part about as long as it is for a greater good according to our minds we will agree with that individual getting political and once it doesn't suit our views we will disagree, protest and more. This is definitely the kind of trigger showing us we need a change for this so it doesn't come from the oligarchs anymore in the future.
I am looking forward to the future feedback from Patagonia itself about it.
On the production side: Huge congrats on this second episode!
Thank you Yannick, so glad to hear you got so much out of it.
I enjoy how deep you went with this