Hugo in his element on home turf. Photo: Nick Pumphrey
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When it comes to the topics of sustainability, environmentalism and the climate crisis, the great Hugo Tagholm is a true visionary.
Hugo has been leading from the front for two decades now, whether as Chief Executive at Surfers Against Sewage, or in his current role as Executive Director and Vice President at Oceana, the largest international advocacy organisation focused solely on ocean conservation.
In this week’s Open Thread, open to free and paid subscribers, Hugo has generously agreed to answer questions about this and anything else you want to ask him about the climate crisis, activism, and environmentalism. He’s currently in Santiago with Oceana, so will be looking at these questions on Thursday 20th - which gives you a couple of days to get your questions in.
My friends at Danner have also offered a brand new pair of their amazing boots as prize for the best question in the comments! I’ll pick a winner once the Thread is finished. (This contest is only open to paid subscribers, as will all future Open Thread contests featuring prizes from my pals at Yeti, Danner,, Db, Patagonia, Finisterre and Goodrays).
Hey Hugo, my question is slightly similar to Tim's previously but I'm interested to know how, when there is so much more to do in this space than it's possible for one individual or organisation to achieve, do you select the issues that you are going to campaign on (whether for SAS or with Oceana)? Do you have to balance impact with engagement, and have there been issues that you wanted to get your teeth stuck into but were unable to? What does that decision-making process entail at the level that you're working at?
I always want to campaign on more than there are hours in the day. Decisions on campaigns can be fast and responsive, when issues and impacts are sudden, or more strategic with the board and teams for long term campaigns, it’s a whole range. I like to bring the best minds together and create the space for everyone to contribute to building the best plan on the most pressing issues. Such as putting Big Oil out of business or tacking the scourge of industrial fishing. Or taking down water company charlatans.
Thanks for keeping up the fight, and your visionary work.
In some recent environmental protest cases the courts have cracked down on defendants who seek to explain the reasons they’re protesting, so the jury are just deciding on whether or not they’re guilty of public nuisance (or worse) regardless of the very relevant justifications.
If jurors aren’t allowed to hear the claims of defendants, it’s going to lead to increased sentences, which for younger protestors, or those of less financial means, is especially detrimental.
Given that, is there anything that can be done to reverse this precedent?
That is the most important book that I've ever read, alongside Citizens by Jon Alexander.
I feel that the routes to addressing our problems are blocked by corporations, their grip on governance and GDP as a measure, and until this changes we're kind of stuck.
When governments are fixated on growth the result will always be more pollution. We can see this most recently in the cost of living crisis. The UK governments response to energy supply issues should have been to push out an agenda of energy saving measures. This would have helped people cope more with the energy prise increases and reduce emissions. They didn't and that's probably due to the fact that such a move would impact GDP.
The same could be said about single use plastic reduction schemes. Any barrier to sales reduces the tax purse.
I'm a big believer in citizens assemblies, as a way to directly involve society in governance. If we can add these to a more generalised decentralisation of governance and the empowerment of local communities, we might begin to drive a wedge between corporations and our governments.
The result would be a form of governance that we're more involved in and one that would allow us to make decisions that are both better for the planet and ourselves.
I guess why I believe in this approach is because I feel that under the current model I have no voice.
In your various roles you've been a massive voice for protecting our waters, and as I'm a donator to SAS you've represented my voice on a global stage.
Do you feel you're listened to? At what level do you feel heard?
Yes! Great point. I agree as I get older I tend to circulate the local haunts. Even venturing to a break 20-30 minutes away from my house can be challenging, when there is a fun point break that turns on in the right moment 7 minutes door to door from my house. And excellent point regarding privilege. More and more, we are aware that the privilege of A) being able to fly somewhere, on top of it to slide some fun waves and / or B) live near or on the beach is a massive privilege only experienced by a few. I agree with Chris' comment that the benefits of travel and culture are immense and connect us so much to other cultures, creating real empathy to those who are not directly around us. A conundrum for sure. I could make similar comments about the cost / benefit analysis of a chairlift or grooming machine for a ski / snowboard mountain.
First of all, a massive thank you, for everything.
I remember buying ‘Save the Earth' by Jonathan Porritt about 20+ years ago which inspired a lifelong interest in environmentalism. I still have the book, although it feels more of a sad irony to look at it now.
My question is, what are your must-read books to inspire the next generation?
Hello Jojo - Thanks for the great question. I really love Rachel Carson's work. So prescient. So powerful. Silent Spring, The Sea Around Us and others. More recently, Less is More (How degrowth will save the world) by Jason Hickel is a thought provoking and accessible roadmap to how we must change our economic model, progress measures and consumption to truly deliver a sustainable future. Infinite growth is not an option.
this may be on or off topic. I was thinking of matt's recent conversation with Chris Burkard (a good one), and the question re airplane travel and wrestling with the environmental impacts. as a frequent traveler over the years for work and fun, it weights on me. matt's conversations with the Big C boys also have had me thinking of our role as outdoors adventurers and businesspersons and "green washing" especially as my children become more aware and engaged in our sports.
i'd be curious your thoughts from your experience and POV. is airplane travel a necessary evil? when calculated, is it better than an automobile? as surfers and outdoor adventurers, what is the best path forward?
Hoon, fantastic question. Given that most of us in the surf, water sports and outdoor sports live in a space of elevated privilege, we need to be clear that air travel cannot really be seen as a necessary evil. Surfing and global travel are nowhere on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's estimated that only 5-10% of the world's population actually fly. It's probably one of the hardest industries to truly decarbonise too. Electric planes are a far off dream. I've flown twice in that last 4 years for recreation but fly quite regularly for work. I think about the justification for the latter each time I go? Why am I going? What are the benefits? Can someone else do it locally? I remember the days before the mass aviation industry and cheap flights. Maybe one day we'll see a necessary and just descaling of the industry. Many of us love to travel and the benefits are interesting. Cultural and other. The older I get, the more I like surfing close to home.
Thanks for having me and for the very flattering introduction. I'll be forever grateful to work on the issues that I care about so much, at the intersect of ocean conservation, ocean sports and the creative space. I'll also be forever grateful to work alongside amazing, talented and committed individuals striving for a better way, a thriving planet and a better deal for all humans. From the brilliant volunteers and activists I've had the good fortune to work with at the beach front over the last two decades to the policy & campaign experts working tirelessly to deliver positive change.
Thanks to each and every one of you. Fighting to restore some sort of natural equilibrium on this planet will require us all in a monumental team effort to shift the axis to how we live regeneratively on Planet Ocean.
I'm writing this from far-flung Chilean Patagonia, where I'm working with Oceana's Chile team who are leading incredible work on Marine Protected Areas among other big ocean issues. It's wild to see how much they're delivering to restore and protect this incredible place. Inspirational. It's a big trip and I hope that my experience and insight has also been impactful.
I'll be at the big protests in London this weekend before returning to my home in Cornwall. Amazing to see the spring in full flow - waves and sunshine. May and June are undoubtedly some of the best months of the year.
I'm stoked to be building a new team of Oceana activists and campaigners from Cornwall to work on some of the big issues. The ocean needs as many of us as possible. It needs all the brilliant NGOs out there. It needs everything that we can throw at the big industries at the the forefront of decimating this planet. Some businesses will be able to reform and we'll need to put others out of business.
Hi Hugo, a question from the Outdoor Swimming Society: a few of us have chatted to the makers of The Big Sea, and it seems the big companies are not acting quickly on neoprene alternatives. Why has it taken so long for this to emerge as a key environmental/human rights issue? What will significant change involve?
This is a really interesting question. It's great to see brands like Finisterre and Patagonia championing natural rubber as a more sustainable option to neoprene. These suits are getting better with every passing year, and are certainly matching performance on warmth. I love mine. The more the surf industry works together on this, the faster will see the wholesale leap across to more sustainable materials. We should all advocate continual sustainability progress on wetsuits and also think about where else we can lower our ecological footprint.
I'm not sure if other neoprene-using industries are innovating in this space too, but I would personally like to see the surf & water sports community both getting its house in order, and uniting to pressure the automotive and aviation industry and other key sectors to follow the lead. There is a big question about what we do for recreation that damages human rights, health and wellbeing around the world. There is a lot. We have health, climate, resource, economic and other considerations. How do we end fossil fuel based neoprene? How do we demand emissions restrictions from these factories? How do we avoid creating pesticide controlled monocultures to make wetsuits for recreation during a biodiversity crisis? How do we help the people most affected by historic emissions and pollution related to this (and other issues our sports are linked to - climate change). I think that the surf industry should revert to its counter-culture attitude to scale change. This should focus on systems change, not just consumer change. Given the human rights issues connected to climate change, we need to recognise that in places like the cold-watered UK, having a more sustainable and durable wetsuit will also help you to reduce your travel impact, with all of the challenges that go with that. The horrific environmental and human health impacts of Big Oil and the petrochemical industry are far-reaching. Viva the green revolution within the surf and water sports sector, and let's use it to unite & drive even wider change.
Hugo, can you tell us how you think about behavioural science when you are devising campaigns? Matt has talked about the values gap in the last few episodes. The idea that there’s a gap between what people say they believe in and how they actually act. Is this something you factor in when planning campaigns and how to communicate them?’ Also, how do you sustain and look after yourself, apart from the surfing? 😜
Great questions Jo. Thank you. Firstly, sport and nature is what I rely most to sustain myself, and spending time with my family and close friends. Surfing is a North Star for me - I want to surf at least 150 times this year, which I'm on track to do. It's useful having a work base in front of a very fun spot. Sea swimming, running, mountain biking and riding waves on other types of craft are all important to me. Breaking down the cortisol and replacing it with endorphins is one of the most brilliant things. It can turn dark into light, pressure into purpose, stress into strength, uncertainty into certainty, bad into good. Changing your chemistry is so powerful. The best drug I've ever had, with a long afterglow. Where I can do this in nature, all the better. Swimming past shoals of fish, seals and sea life. Running through forests at dawn. And surfing with my wife Sarah and our son Darwin in hidden corners around Cornwall.
In terms of designing campaigns, the more insights and information the better in some ways. There is a definitely a huge gap between what people say and what they do. I think this can be especially true in the outdoor action space. I worry that the old phrase 'People Protect What They Love' is can oftentimes really 'people protecting their privilege'.
Designing great campaigns needs the right foundations; audience and power mapping, a strong theory of change, the right science and evidence; the right timing, the right values, a committed and driven team with shared values. Campaigns that are based on opinion alone just won't cut it! I have seen many.
All that said, campaigning often needs to be agile and reactive, and so moving quickly, with confidence is vital at times. Which makes preparing solid foundations and a plan even more important.
Inevitably there’s going to be a time when it’s all said and done and you look back in detail on your career. Maybe not soon, but eventually.
You’ve achieved a lot, galvanised change, moved things forward enormously. But I want to ask about the other side. What is your single biggest frustration or regret about the career you’ve had and why?
In particular, I’d love to hear what that “thorn in the side” has been for you in your career as it relates to achieving more.
Thanks Lew. What a great question. I'm stoked to have had the opportunity to work on the issues I care about so much and with great people from all walks of life. All my successes have been thanks to a team effort. I have loved bringing people together to drive change, and create opportunities for millions of people to be part of ocean activism. I'm always inspired by the people truly inspired and motivated by the ocean - the authenticity always shines through. I'm fiercely proud of what I delivered at SAS, of course. I put my heart and soul into building the charity and its impact.
The thorn in the side? The regrets? The things that you really learn from? There are many! The public generally see the good things. Just a few of the things I'd have wanted to put even more energy into:
The Ocean is really only just becoming central to the world's environmental thinking. It makes up 70% of the planet and it's unbelievable that world leaders still aren't truly following the science. We are fishing out our seas in large parts. Intensive agriculture is decimating our ocean. Big oil and gas are causing havoc to our air and ocean. Water companies have been getting away with blue murder since privatisation (sewage discharges just weren't monitored in the same way in the 1990s and early 2000s). I would have liked to have gone even faster and more radical, but there were dynamics and financial barriers that were challenging.
When your in a leadership position, there are always people who attack you. It can be a real drain of positive energy if you aren't careful. I took too much to heart at times, even if I didn't show it. Truthfully, there were some people I thought were allies who, with hindsight, never were. I would have been more conscious of this. But I tend to look forward not back. It's all a journey and you learn. Mistakes are a better coach than successes.
Fighting Brexit even more than we did is also a place I would have done more on. SAS was never going to win that fight alone, but I would have done even more on that issue. It has caused so many problems for the eNGO sector and the country at large.
I think you've also got to always enjoy the ride. Spend time doing what you love. With your family and friends. making time for yourself. Your biggest regret will come from working too much otherwise. You can only be brilliant at what you do if you recharge a lot. That's what I'm focused on. If you turn up your happiest, best self, you'll always bring more people along with you.
Stoked to see you continuing the awesome work at OCEANA.
Loved Tim’s question and keen to hear your answer.
Feels like their is currently no opportunity to affect change on sewage pollution given recent government decisions and the continual CSO discharges in (what feels like) higher volumes than ever before. What’s the play?
Good morning from Chile my friend. I hope that you're well.
Thanks for your kind words, I appreciate it. I'm so excited by the new issues and challenges with Oceana. We're making good progress already but have so much in store. We have to push for policy change to drive systems change. We working to put some of the most destructive industries out of business. Individual change is important by systems change even more so. The current system will always try to apportion blame and responsibility to the individual. You and I. It's their biggest trick. It let's them carry on with business as usual.
Legal challenges from Oceana are already helping force the UK government to take action to end destructive bottom trawling from Marine Protected Areas. We have more in store.
The sewage issue enrages me. That's why I am teaming up with the Good Law Project to take the government to the High Court to challenge the wholly adequate plan. The government is failing our environment. And all of us who depend on it (that's everyone!) The data is shocking but let's also not be fooled. The privatised water industry has been doing this from the get-go. CSO's were pumping out sewage in the 1990s and 2000s, it just wasn't monitored as it is today. We fixed that.
Information is power and it is something I worked really hard to expose over the last decade. I'm so glad that this has exposed a polluting and profiteering industry. And government and regulator failures. It's an issue the public really care about. it. I'll be seeing the government in court soon. Too many polluted surfs. Water quality Russian Roulette from week to week. Too much uncertainty about water company claims. Too little action to hold them to account.
I'll tell you more over a wave or two. Come down to see us at the new Oceana Newquay HQ soon.
Activism has become more needed than ever especially when talking about well being for planet and people. Activists have always brought a voice to topics that are silenced, and have raised awareness on both social and environmental issues. As we move forward how does activism have to evolve, as we see purpose driven brands like Finisterre and Patagonia step into the realm of activism, is there lessons to be learned more widely across business and industry and do they need to engage with activism, in a a way we’ve never seen before, where industry collaborate’s with activists to impact and contribute to change. Dare I say it, but moving forward will we see activists in the board room, in the same way we’ve seen skater and surfer creatives join big brands as creative directors?
Thank you for the question Christian. It's such an interesting time as we see businesses becoming more purposeful and joining the campaign & activism front, and as we see activists joining brands. I think that people increasingly want to work for brands that share their values. They want to work for businesses that strive to do better for people and planet, that care for their workforce and give back. Activism isn't just about waving placards and rallying, you can equally do it around the boardroom table, in your finance department or any part of a business. We need people inside and outside businesses to drive change. In terms of the movement building, I tend to think this is more successfully led by NGOs and campaigners, but businesses are increasingly trying to support in this space. I know activists that wear wetsuits. I know activists that wear suits.
Hugo, thanks for your time and insights, what a beautiful response, there’s certainly some points to reflect on and some brilliant insights. Loving the closing sentence.
Thanks Ben. I think we really need to prioritise the ocean ecosystems that need to be highly protected. No extractive industries, no industrial fishing, no oil and gas. We need to conserve the thriving areas of the ocean and restore others. By taking away human pressures, we'll allow all of the interdependent species to flourish. From the near shore to the high seas, we must do this.
And so to 'Whataboutery'... you must have been confronted by a lot of it during your time at SAS - people not wanting to engage with an awkward or inconvenient issue and instead countering it with the well worn, 'yeah but what about XYZ*...' (*insert every other related or unrelated issue that's ever existed) as a means of avoidance. What have you found is the best way to deal with this , to motivate others to act and to stay motivated yourself?
So much Demi! I worked flat out on may issues and would so often be confronted by people ignorant of all the work we were doing and associated sacrifices the team were making. I missed a lot of waves to protect waves. I quickly realised that everyone is in their own microcosm, at the centre of their own world, all reinforced by their own personal algorithms. They will never be exposed to all the things that you're working on, you can't expect them to. You can be working super hard and they assume you're doing nothing because your not focused where they're focused. For all its brilliance in connecting us, social media also divides and compartmentalises us. You have to be resilient. You can't please everyone. You have to commit to what you're doing. In the surf space, NGO space and in the southwest, their is a lot of judgement. I used sport, endorphins and alternative perspectives to lift myself. There are always detractors, and feel sorry for them. It's just too negative. I'm proud of the huge impact my teams have had. Exposing polluters and challenging politicians. I'm proud to have been able to create models and find funding to run great campaigns and employ excellent humans. The ocean and surfing with my family and friends was also always a fantastic antidote. Keep going.
Apr 18, 2023·edited Apr 18, 2023Liked by Matthew Barr
Hello mate.
This is probably just a combination of all the other questions. You and SAS were always strongest when campaigning specifically for a change in legislation (Bathing water directives, plastic bag tax, DRS etc), becuase the objectives and results were clear for activists and politicians to get behind and to communicate.
That seems even more vital now. I want to demand something that MPs can make law.
So given that (A) there's no credible legislation in the pipeline that we can campaign for, and (B) that environmental activism has become very noisy, fractured, unfocussed and to be honest, devisive, what should we be focussing on? What are we demanding that the government does first?
What should I put on my placard for the XR protest?
Hello Tim, so nice to hear from you and thanks for the excellent question.
Yes, I agree the most powerful and effective campaigns are one that targeted policy change, at the right time, to change the industries, products and systems that are damaging our ocean. This also needed lots of activists behind it.
But I agree that it's complicated time for change and for our sector. Increasingly fractured and fragmented. Sometimes unclear. Often heated and divisive (don't forget that businesses and politicians love in-fighting and divisiveness amongst NGOs because it takes the pressure and focus off them.
I think we need to unite to stop new oil and gas urgently. This is a common call amongst an increasing number of our NGO friends and allies. The science is clear on climate change. The science is clear on biodiversity loss. We also need to stop industrial fishing. We need to follow the science. Here are some suggestions:
Hey Hugo, now that you have your feet under the desk at Oceana... What are the main challenges you and the rest of the team are faced with, apart from the obvious?!
Hey Hugo, hope you're well. The British public are rightly up in arms about sewage pollution thanks to the tireless campaigning (and protesting, in response to Matt's point about protests not seeming to make a difference…) of you/Surfers Against Sewage/SOS Whitstable/Feargal Sharkey and countless others. How can we use this wholly justified concern to get more people to care about the wider health of our oceans (eg the crazy damage to seabeds from bottom trawling, rapid global heating of oceans) or are some of these problems too seemingly abstract for people to engage as deeply with?
Hello Sam. I hope that all's well. Fantastic to hear from you. This is a great question. The current state of the debate on water quality has taken years in the years in the making. The sewage spill data we demanded and exposed through SAS has been a huge part of elevating it in the public and political spheres. The campaign reports and actions over the years. Water companies were getting away with this in the 1990s and 2000s as the data simply wasn't available in the same way. They got away by hiding their dirty secret. Then we saw the defunding of regulators. The weakening of regulation and worse. This campaign has all the most powerful components - big profiteering business, revolving doors between water companies, regulators and government, profits at the expense the natural work and old school business models failing to invest properly. Plus an abundance of mismanagement, untruths and quasi-illegal industry actions. All impacting the beaches and rivers we all love. I'm so pleased to be taking the government to the High Court with the Good Law Project this summer.
This is a really big issue and may well be a driving force behind the current government's unpopularity (amongst many other things!)
But we need to act urgently on other issues - ending offshore oil and gas, stopping industrial overfishing, acting on climate change, radically protecting and restoring ocean ecosystems. So much. The water quality issue is a really complicated one but has been communicated in a very binary and clear way, which has brought the public with it. We must absolutely do the same on some of these massive global issues.
We have to act faster and go further. And accept that it may well mean we need to sacrifice things we currently have in our lives. We managed massive and rapid change with the pandemic - government's mobilised massive amounts of money - we all accepted lifestyle changes we never dreamt we would have. We have to do the same on the climate and biodiversity crisis.
Your work has centred on the health of our oceans, and with SAS it captured the attention of progressive, tuned-in, young(er), and proactive water lovers. Of course, the state of our oceans and our rivers is inextricably linked, but of all the river-focussed action groups in the UK, I've found none that achieve the same level of progressive engagement. Instead they seem very stagnant, tired, and ill-equipped to communicate with those most likely to stand up and make noise. What can existing, and any emerging, river action groups learn from SAS to better reach those who will bring community action to the cause?
I think we are seeing some fantastic tactics from brilliant campaigners like Amy Slack at Rover Action and the amazing team at SOS Whitstable. The toolkit of activism needs the youthful and agile populists like SAS, the policy experts, the collaborators, the communicators, the scientists and much more to drive the change we want to see. It's not always a numbers game.
1. Given that the cost estimates by the UK government of fully upgrading the UK sewage network to separate wastewater and rainwater (eliminating combined sewers and CSOs) are in the region of £350 billion and £600 billion, I realise these figures are arguable however the sums involved will be large in every scenario. The system of privatised water companies wouldn't withstand the financial pressure under current water rates, not would a publicly owned system without increased cash injection. So ultimately people will have to pay more for their waste water through general taxation or increased water rates. There needs to be a fundamental shift in people's attitude to their own waste, i.e. it's everyone's problem not flushed and forgotten. There's also measures that can be taken to reduce CSO frequency by asking (or paying, or forcing) the public to do things like not pave over their driveways with impermeable surfaces and to use things like water butts to slow water runoff. Again that's about personal ownership of the problem.
How do you think that could be sold to the public and achieved? Or disagree with my points, either will be interesting!
2. Due to decades of underfunding the Environment Agency, and their water quality sampling reducing in frequency, there's currently a significant lack of evidence to identify exactly why many rivers are not meeting water quality standards. There's is evidence that the most significant cause is diffuse pollution from agriculture and urban runoff, more so than sewage in many rivers. Before we spend a raft load of cash on a thing that's the current headline pollution issue (not to minimise the excellent work people like yourself have been doing for many years!), surely we should prioritise asking the government to gather better evidence on sources of pollution to enable us to make evidence based decisions on river water quality improvements?
Won't we risk being in the situation where there's still crap water quality in certain areas and we haven't spent the money in the right place?
Thank you for the great questions Charlie. Let me unpack these.
Firstly, on that range of £350 - £600 billion. This was never properly costed and was always a number presented as part of a full engineering project to have a separate sewage and grey water from surface (rain) water. This was never suggested by eNGOs. Nor was this figure ever explained fully by government and I believe was put into the debate deliberately to scare people, The actually cost to solve the worst of the sewage issue was a fraction of this.
Secondly, the water industry is responsible for hundreds of thousands of pollution events annually totalling millions of hours of sewage pollution being pumped into our rivers and seas. At the same time they're making vast profits. And underinvesting. And avoiding taxes. This is an untenable position for these profiteering monopolies. They are responsible for an estimated 30% of the pollution and they need to get their house in order. Just because there are other polluting industries doesn't get them off the hook.
The data on sewage spills should help them prioritise areas for investment and the right location specific solutions.
Thanks for the reply Hugo. I thought you'd point out the disparity between the government figures and the ones from eNGOs on making changes to the system. I think we can safely say it's not going to be a simple fix, and in terms of costs we need to compare apples with apples and also agree on what we're actually looking to achieve. I whole heartedly agree that money to make a workable system shouldn't be lost to shareholders (though there's a question regarding pension funds in there...). Having worked as an environmental professional for a privatised utility in the past (gas distribution), I like to think I made a real and positive impact in that job but I've seen first hand the expectation of shareholder payback and always felt uncomfortable with the system as it stands. In its current form it in no way represents good value for money for rate payers and in the case of water, definitely not for the environment either.
In terms of waste water contributing to 30% of the pollution in our rivers. That still leaves 70% and that 70% includes pollution from sources such as farming - which is a big contributor to the struggle to get inland bathing waters signed off (that and the dearth of water quality data). Light touch regulation of farmers can't continue.
Thanks again for the reply, and we really need people like yourself to challenge governments and individuals to do better for the environment. I've worked in environmental jobs for nearly 20 years now and it feels like we've just spent at least a decade standing still
Good question! I led SAS for almost 15 years, taking it from near closure to where it is today. When I started it was in challenging place, financially, strategically and structurally. I'm so pleased to have founded so many initiatives there that now continue to lift it - from the exposure of water company CSO discharges, to the plastics campaigns and education programme. Most of all I loved the authentic campaigning - uniting people at the beachfront to challenge industry. As a surfer, this was always so important to me. SAS will always be like a child to me and I’m proud to see it continue to grow.
I was always to work within a more international context and organisation, and was for a number of years doing this in part with SAS. So I was considering a move and when Oceana came to me it was an opportunity and new experience I couldn't refuse. I'm working with amazing teams in Chile, Mexico, Belize, the Philippines and many other places. And stoked to be building a new team and great campaigns from Cornwall again.
15 years is a long time and I knew SAS wasn't the last place I'd lead campaigns. Change and renewal are great and I'm still working on water quality with my High Court challenge to the government with the Good Law Project.
I'll always be grateful for my time leading and transforming SAS, and will always have a huge place in my heart for the charity and all the brilliant people involved. It's amazing.
I’m going to start us off this week. Hugo - how are water companies in the UK getting away with this, and what can ordinary people do to try and change things? Protests seem to make no difference.
Great question. Really the water industry should not be able to disperse the vast dividends it gives out until it sorts out the problem. You can't be making huge profits whilst underinvesting and polluting. We also need to take the government to the High Court to challenge an inadequate plan of action to stop sewage pollution. I'm stoked to be doing this with the Good Law Project.
Thanks again for all the amazing questions. I look forward to seeing you all in the water soon. For the Ocean. Hugo 🙏🤙🌎🌊✊
Thanks so much for doing this Hugo 🙏
Hey Hugo, my question is slightly similar to Tim's previously but I'm interested to know how, when there is so much more to do in this space than it's possible for one individual or organisation to achieve, do you select the issues that you are going to campaign on (whether for SAS or with Oceana)? Do you have to balance impact with engagement, and have there been issues that you wanted to get your teeth stuck into but were unable to? What does that decision-making process entail at the level that you're working at?
I always want to campaign on more than there are hours in the day. Decisions on campaigns can be fast and responsive, when issues and impacts are sudden, or more strategic with the board and teams for long term campaigns, it’s a whole range. I like to bring the best minds together and create the space for everyone to contribute to building the best plan on the most pressing issues. Such as putting Big Oil out of business or tacking the scourge of industrial fishing. Or taking down water company charlatans.
Hi Hugo,
Thanks for keeping up the fight, and your visionary work.
In some recent environmental protest cases the courts have cracked down on defendants who seek to explain the reasons they’re protesting, so the jury are just deciding on whether or not they’re guilty of public nuisance (or worse) regardless of the very relevant justifications.
If jurors aren’t allowed to hear the claims of defendants, it’s going to lead to increased sentences, which for younger protestors, or those of less financial means, is especially detrimental.
Given that, is there anything that can be done to reverse this precedent?
That is an interesting question and one we all need to explore. The draconian clampdown on protest and freedoms has to be stopped.
Hi Hugo,
Thanks for everything you do!
My question is do you believe we can improve our waters in a system where GDP and growth are the dominant measures?
Also read Less is More if you haven’t already. By Jason Hickel.
That is the most important book that I've ever read, alongside Citizens by Jon Alexander.
I feel that the routes to addressing our problems are blocked by corporations, their grip on governance and GDP as a measure, and until this changes we're kind of stuck.
When governments are fixated on growth the result will always be more pollution. We can see this most recently in the cost of living crisis. The UK governments response to energy supply issues should have been to push out an agenda of energy saving measures. This would have helped people cope more with the energy prise increases and reduce emissions. They didn't and that's probably due to the fact that such a move would impact GDP.
The same could be said about single use plastic reduction schemes. Any barrier to sales reduces the tax purse.
I'm a big believer in citizens assemblies, as a way to directly involve society in governance. If we can add these to a more generalised decentralisation of governance and the empowerment of local communities, we might begin to drive a wedge between corporations and our governments.
The result would be a form of governance that we're more involved in and one that would allow us to make decisions that are both better for the planet and ourselves.
I guess why I believe in this approach is because I feel that under the current model I have no voice.
In your various roles you've been a massive voice for protecting our waters, and as I'm a donator to SAS you've represented my voice on a global stage.
Do you feel you're listened to? At what level do you feel heard?
I do feel that I’m influencing hearts, minds and policy. And I’m stoked to represent you.
Thank you, that’s kind.
It’s a big question. We definitely need to change the current economic model. GDP is a bad way to measure things for people and planet.
The challenges are huge but we must rise to them. We must find new ways. We must never give up. We can never rest.
Yes! Great point. I agree as I get older I tend to circulate the local haunts. Even venturing to a break 20-30 minutes away from my house can be challenging, when there is a fun point break that turns on in the right moment 7 minutes door to door from my house. And excellent point regarding privilege. More and more, we are aware that the privilege of A) being able to fly somewhere, on top of it to slide some fun waves and / or B) live near or on the beach is a massive privilege only experienced by a few. I agree with Chris' comment that the benefits of travel and culture are immense and connect us so much to other cultures, creating real empathy to those who are not directly around us. A conundrum for sure. I could make similar comments about the cost / benefit analysis of a chairlift or grooming machine for a ski / snowboard mountain.
Hi Hugo,
First of all, a massive thank you, for everything.
I remember buying ‘Save the Earth' by Jonathan Porritt about 20+ years ago which inspired a lifelong interest in environmentalism. I still have the book, although it feels more of a sad irony to look at it now.
My question is, what are your must-read books to inspire the next generation?
Hello Jojo - Thanks for the great question. I really love Rachel Carson's work. So prescient. So powerful. Silent Spring, The Sea Around Us and others. More recently, Less is More (How degrowth will save the world) by Jason Hickel is a thought provoking and accessible roadmap to how we must change our economic model, progress measures and consumption to truly deliver a sustainable future. Infinite growth is not an option.
this may be on or off topic. I was thinking of matt's recent conversation with Chris Burkard (a good one), and the question re airplane travel and wrestling with the environmental impacts. as a frequent traveler over the years for work and fun, it weights on me. matt's conversations with the Big C boys also have had me thinking of our role as outdoors adventurers and businesspersons and "green washing" especially as my children become more aware and engaged in our sports.
i'd be curious your thoughts from your experience and POV. is airplane travel a necessary evil? when calculated, is it better than an automobile? as surfers and outdoor adventurers, what is the best path forward?
maybe a lot to respond to, but I am curious.
Hoon, fantastic question. Given that most of us in the surf, water sports and outdoor sports live in a space of elevated privilege, we need to be clear that air travel cannot really be seen as a necessary evil. Surfing and global travel are nowhere on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's estimated that only 5-10% of the world's population actually fly. It's probably one of the hardest industries to truly decarbonise too. Electric planes are a far off dream. I've flown twice in that last 4 years for recreation but fly quite regularly for work. I think about the justification for the latter each time I go? Why am I going? What are the benefits? Can someone else do it locally? I remember the days before the mass aviation industry and cheap flights. Maybe one day we'll see a necessary and just descaling of the industry. Many of us love to travel and the benefits are interesting. Cultural and other. The older I get, the more I like surfing close to home.
Thanks for having me and for the very flattering introduction. I'll be forever grateful to work on the issues that I care about so much, at the intersect of ocean conservation, ocean sports and the creative space. I'll also be forever grateful to work alongside amazing, talented and committed individuals striving for a better way, a thriving planet and a better deal for all humans. From the brilliant volunteers and activists I've had the good fortune to work with at the beach front over the last two decades to the policy & campaign experts working tirelessly to deliver positive change.
Thanks to each and every one of you. Fighting to restore some sort of natural equilibrium on this planet will require us all in a monumental team effort to shift the axis to how we live regeneratively on Planet Ocean.
I'm writing this from far-flung Chilean Patagonia, where I'm working with Oceana's Chile team who are leading incredible work on Marine Protected Areas among other big ocean issues. It's wild to see how much they're delivering to restore and protect this incredible place. Inspirational. It's a big trip and I hope that my experience and insight has also been impactful.
I'll be at the big protests in London this weekend before returning to my home in Cornwall. Amazing to see the spring in full flow - waves and sunshine. May and June are undoubtedly some of the best months of the year.
I'm stoked to be building a new team of Oceana activists and campaigners from Cornwall to work on some of the big issues. The ocean needs as many of us as possible. It needs all the brilliant NGOs out there. It needs everything that we can throw at the big industries at the the forefront of decimating this planet. Some businesses will be able to reform and we'll need to put others out of business.
I hope to see you all in the lineup soon.
For the ocean - Hugo
Twitter: @HugoSAS
Hi Hugo, a question from the Outdoor Swimming Society: a few of us have chatted to the makers of The Big Sea, and it seems the big companies are not acting quickly on neoprene alternatives. Why has it taken so long for this to emerge as a key environmental/human rights issue? What will significant change involve?
This is a really interesting question. It's great to see brands like Finisterre and Patagonia championing natural rubber as a more sustainable option to neoprene. These suits are getting better with every passing year, and are certainly matching performance on warmth. I love mine. The more the surf industry works together on this, the faster will see the wholesale leap across to more sustainable materials. We should all advocate continual sustainability progress on wetsuits and also think about where else we can lower our ecological footprint.
I'm not sure if other neoprene-using industries are innovating in this space too, but I would personally like to see the surf & water sports community both getting its house in order, and uniting to pressure the automotive and aviation industry and other key sectors to follow the lead. There is a big question about what we do for recreation that damages human rights, health and wellbeing around the world. There is a lot. We have health, climate, resource, economic and other considerations. How do we end fossil fuel based neoprene? How do we demand emissions restrictions from these factories? How do we avoid creating pesticide controlled monocultures to make wetsuits for recreation during a biodiversity crisis? How do we help the people most affected by historic emissions and pollution related to this (and other issues our sports are linked to - climate change). I think that the surf industry should revert to its counter-culture attitude to scale change. This should focus on systems change, not just consumer change. Given the human rights issues connected to climate change, we need to recognise that in places like the cold-watered UK, having a more sustainable and durable wetsuit will also help you to reduce your travel impact, with all of the challenges that go with that. The horrific environmental and human health impacts of Big Oil and the petrochemical industry are far-reaching. Viva the green revolution within the surf and water sports sector, and let's use it to unite & drive even wider change.
So glad to see awareness of this in the swimming community. Thanks for the great question Beth.
Hugo, can you tell us how you think about behavioural science when you are devising campaigns? Matt has talked about the values gap in the last few episodes. The idea that there’s a gap between what people say they believe in and how they actually act. Is this something you factor in when planning campaigns and how to communicate them?’ Also, how do you sustain and look after yourself, apart from the surfing? 😜
Great questions Jo. Thank you. Firstly, sport and nature is what I rely most to sustain myself, and spending time with my family and close friends. Surfing is a North Star for me - I want to surf at least 150 times this year, which I'm on track to do. It's useful having a work base in front of a very fun spot. Sea swimming, running, mountain biking and riding waves on other types of craft are all important to me. Breaking down the cortisol and replacing it with endorphins is one of the most brilliant things. It can turn dark into light, pressure into purpose, stress into strength, uncertainty into certainty, bad into good. Changing your chemistry is so powerful. The best drug I've ever had, with a long afterglow. Where I can do this in nature, all the better. Swimming past shoals of fish, seals and sea life. Running through forests at dawn. And surfing with my wife Sarah and our son Darwin in hidden corners around Cornwall.
In terms of designing campaigns, the more insights and information the better in some ways. There is a definitely a huge gap between what people say and what they do. I think this can be especially true in the outdoor action space. I worry that the old phrase 'People Protect What They Love' is can oftentimes really 'people protecting their privilege'.
Designing great campaigns needs the right foundations; audience and power mapping, a strong theory of change, the right science and evidence; the right timing, the right values, a committed and driven team with shared values. Campaigns that are based on opinion alone just won't cut it! I have seen many.
All that said, campaigning often needs to be agile and reactive, and so moving quickly, with confidence is vital at times. Which makes preparing solid foundations and a plan even more important.
Hi Hugo.
Inevitably there’s going to be a time when it’s all said and done and you look back in detail on your career. Maybe not soon, but eventually.
You’ve achieved a lot, galvanised change, moved things forward enormously. But I want to ask about the other side. What is your single biggest frustration or regret about the career you’ve had and why?
In particular, I’d love to hear what that “thorn in the side” has been for you in your career as it relates to achieving more.
Lew
Thanks Lew. What a great question. I'm stoked to have had the opportunity to work on the issues I care about so much and with great people from all walks of life. All my successes have been thanks to a team effort. I have loved bringing people together to drive change, and create opportunities for millions of people to be part of ocean activism. I'm always inspired by the people truly inspired and motivated by the ocean - the authenticity always shines through. I'm fiercely proud of what I delivered at SAS, of course. I put my heart and soul into building the charity and its impact.
The thorn in the side? The regrets? The things that you really learn from? There are many! The public generally see the good things. Just a few of the things I'd have wanted to put even more energy into:
The Ocean is really only just becoming central to the world's environmental thinking. It makes up 70% of the planet and it's unbelievable that world leaders still aren't truly following the science. We are fishing out our seas in large parts. Intensive agriculture is decimating our ocean. Big oil and gas are causing havoc to our air and ocean. Water companies have been getting away with blue murder since privatisation (sewage discharges just weren't monitored in the same way in the 1990s and early 2000s). I would have liked to have gone even faster and more radical, but there were dynamics and financial barriers that were challenging.
When your in a leadership position, there are always people who attack you. It can be a real drain of positive energy if you aren't careful. I took too much to heart at times, even if I didn't show it. Truthfully, there were some people I thought were allies who, with hindsight, never were. I would have been more conscious of this. But I tend to look forward not back. It's all a journey and you learn. Mistakes are a better coach than successes.
Fighting Brexit even more than we did is also a place I would have done more on. SAS was never going to win that fight alone, but I would have done even more on that issue. It has caused so many problems for the eNGO sector and the country at large.
I think you've also got to always enjoy the ride. Spend time doing what you love. With your family and friends. making time for yourself. Your biggest regret will come from working too much otherwise. You can only be brilliant at what you do if you recharge a lot. That's what I'm focused on. If you turn up your happiest, best self, you'll always bring more people along with you.
Awesome - thanks for the thought behind those words! L
Great question!
Good morning Brother.
Stoked to see you continuing the awesome work at OCEANA.
Loved Tim’s question and keen to hear your answer.
Feels like their is currently no opportunity to affect change on sewage pollution given recent government decisions and the continual CSO discharges in (what feels like) higher volumes than ever before. What’s the play?
Hope to see you in the water soon.
Good morning from Chile my friend. I hope that you're well.
Thanks for your kind words, I appreciate it. I'm so excited by the new issues and challenges with Oceana. We're making good progress already but have so much in store. We have to push for policy change to drive systems change. We working to put some of the most destructive industries out of business. Individual change is important by systems change even more so. The current system will always try to apportion blame and responsibility to the individual. You and I. It's their biggest trick. It let's them carry on with business as usual.
Legal challenges from Oceana are already helping force the UK government to take action to end destructive bottom trawling from Marine Protected Areas. We have more in store.
The sewage issue enrages me. That's why I am teaming up with the Good Law Project to take the government to the High Court to challenge the wholly adequate plan. The government is failing our environment. And all of us who depend on it (that's everyone!) The data is shocking but let's also not be fooled. The privatised water industry has been doing this from the get-go. CSO's were pumping out sewage in the 1990s and 2000s, it just wasn't monitored as it is today. We fixed that.
Information is power and it is something I worked really hard to expose over the last decade. I'm so glad that this has exposed a polluting and profiteering industry. And government and regulator failures. It's an issue the public really care about. it. I'll be seeing the government in court soon. Too many polluted surfs. Water quality Russian Roulette from week to week. Too much uncertainty about water company claims. Too little action to hold them to account.
I'll tell you more over a wave or two. Come down to see us at the new Oceana Newquay HQ soon.
best - Hugo
Great to hear about your work with Good Law Project and I look forward to hearing more in the waves.
Also great to see Darwin ripping it up on the boog!!
Thanks amigo! Darwin is frothing & ripping on the boog. Great to have one back in my quiver too. 🙏🤙
Activism has become more needed than ever especially when talking about well being for planet and people. Activists have always brought a voice to topics that are silenced, and have raised awareness on both social and environmental issues. As we move forward how does activism have to evolve, as we see purpose driven brands like Finisterre and Patagonia step into the realm of activism, is there lessons to be learned more widely across business and industry and do they need to engage with activism, in a a way we’ve never seen before, where industry collaborate’s with activists to impact and contribute to change. Dare I say it, but moving forward will we see activists in the board room, in the same way we’ve seen skater and surfer creatives join big brands as creative directors?
Thank you for the question Christian. It's such an interesting time as we see businesses becoming more purposeful and joining the campaign & activism front, and as we see activists joining brands. I think that people increasingly want to work for brands that share their values. They want to work for businesses that strive to do better for people and planet, that care for their workforce and give back. Activism isn't just about waving placards and rallying, you can equally do it around the boardroom table, in your finance department or any part of a business. We need people inside and outside businesses to drive change. In terms of the movement building, I tend to think this is more successfully led by NGOs and campaigners, but businesses are increasingly trying to support in this space. I know activists that wear wetsuits. I know activists that wear suits.
Hugo, thanks for your time and insights, what a beautiful response, there’s certainly some points to reflect on and some brilliant insights. Loving the closing sentence.
Which ocean based species are prioritised for protection? Does this include plant life?
Hi Ben. Congrats. You win a pair of Danner Boots. Can you email me to arrange? Ta
Thanks Ben. I think we really need to prioritise the ocean ecosystems that need to be highly protected. No extractive industries, no industrial fishing, no oil and gas. We need to conserve the thriving areas of the ocean and restore others. By taking away human pressures, we'll allow all of the interdependent species to flourish. From the near shore to the high seas, we must do this.
And so to 'Whataboutery'... you must have been confronted by a lot of it during your time at SAS - people not wanting to engage with an awkward or inconvenient issue and instead countering it with the well worn, 'yeah but what about XYZ*...' (*insert every other related or unrelated issue that's ever existed) as a means of avoidance. What have you found is the best way to deal with this , to motivate others to act and to stay motivated yourself?
So much Demi! I worked flat out on may issues and would so often be confronted by people ignorant of all the work we were doing and associated sacrifices the team were making. I missed a lot of waves to protect waves. I quickly realised that everyone is in their own microcosm, at the centre of their own world, all reinforced by their own personal algorithms. They will never be exposed to all the things that you're working on, you can't expect them to. You can be working super hard and they assume you're doing nothing because your not focused where they're focused. For all its brilliance in connecting us, social media also divides and compartmentalises us. You have to be resilient. You can't please everyone. You have to commit to what you're doing. In the surf space, NGO space and in the southwest, their is a lot of judgement. I used sport, endorphins and alternative perspectives to lift myself. There are always detractors, and feel sorry for them. It's just too negative. I'm proud of the huge impact my teams have had. Exposing polluters and challenging politicians. I'm proud to have been able to create models and find funding to run great campaigns and employ excellent humans. The ocean and surfing with my family and friends was also always a fantastic antidote. Keep going.
Hello mate.
This is probably just a combination of all the other questions. You and SAS were always strongest when campaigning specifically for a change in legislation (Bathing water directives, plastic bag tax, DRS etc), becuase the objectives and results were clear for activists and politicians to get behind and to communicate.
That seems even more vital now. I want to demand something that MPs can make law.
So given that (A) there's no credible legislation in the pipeline that we can campaign for, and (B) that environmental activism has become very noisy, fractured, unfocussed and to be honest, devisive, what should we be focussing on? What are we demanding that the government does first?
What should I put on my placard for the XR protest?
Hello Tim, so nice to hear from you and thanks for the excellent question.
Yes, I agree the most powerful and effective campaigns are one that targeted policy change, at the right time, to change the industries, products and systems that are damaging our ocean. This also needed lots of activists behind it.
But I agree that it's complicated time for change and for our sector. Increasingly fractured and fragmented. Sometimes unclear. Often heated and divisive (don't forget that businesses and politicians love in-fighting and divisiveness amongst NGOs because it takes the pressure and focus off them.
I think we need to unite to stop new oil and gas urgently. This is a common call amongst an increasing number of our NGO friends and allies. The science is clear on climate change. The science is clear on biodiversity loss. We also need to stop industrial fishing. We need to follow the science. Here are some suggestions:
Sunak Don't Surf
Anti Drilling Surf Club
Fuck Big Oil
Ocean Vs Overfishing
Save the Human
Systems Change Vs Climate Change
Unfuck Planet Ocean
Let's get together for a wave and beer soon.
Best - Hugo
Thanks Hugo, excellent advice as always. Sunak Don't Surf it is! And yes to a get together soon🤙🏼🤙🏼
No worries my friend! Come see us in Cornwall soon. The new office is even closer to the sea than the last one!
This is a great question 🙏
Hey Hugo, now that you have your feet under the desk at Oceana... What are the main challenges you and the rest of the team are faced with, apart from the obvious?!
I'm building a team to focus on three areas:
1) Ending overfishing
2) Stopping destructive industrial activities in Marine Protected Areas
3) Stopping new offshore oil and gas - https://www.indeepwater.co.uk/
These are all issues that need more capacity, expertise and Oceana can bring a lot.
I'm really only just getting started - 20 weeks in and we're starting to make some noise. So much more to come.
Cheers Hugo, sounds great! Really looking forward to see what your leadership will achieve..! 🙌🏼
Hey Hugo, hope you're well. The British public are rightly up in arms about sewage pollution thanks to the tireless campaigning (and protesting, in response to Matt's point about protests not seeming to make a difference…) of you/Surfers Against Sewage/SOS Whitstable/Feargal Sharkey and countless others. How can we use this wholly justified concern to get more people to care about the wider health of our oceans (eg the crazy damage to seabeds from bottom trawling, rapid global heating of oceans) or are some of these problems too seemingly abstract for people to engage as deeply with?
Hello Sam. I hope that all's well. Fantastic to hear from you. This is a great question. The current state of the debate on water quality has taken years in the years in the making. The sewage spill data we demanded and exposed through SAS has been a huge part of elevating it in the public and political spheres. The campaign reports and actions over the years. Water companies were getting away with this in the 1990s and 2000s as the data simply wasn't available in the same way. They got away by hiding their dirty secret. Then we saw the defunding of regulators. The weakening of regulation and worse. This campaign has all the most powerful components - big profiteering business, revolving doors between water companies, regulators and government, profits at the expense the natural work and old school business models failing to invest properly. Plus an abundance of mismanagement, untruths and quasi-illegal industry actions. All impacting the beaches and rivers we all love. I'm so pleased to be taking the government to the High Court with the Good Law Project this summer.
This is a really big issue and may well be a driving force behind the current government's unpopularity (amongst many other things!)
But we need to act urgently on other issues - ending offshore oil and gas, stopping industrial overfishing, acting on climate change, radically protecting and restoring ocean ecosystems. So much. The water quality issue is a really complicated one but has been communicated in a very binary and clear way, which has brought the public with it. We must absolutely do the same on some of these massive global issues.
We have to act faster and go further. And accept that it may well mean we need to sacrifice things we currently have in our lives. We managed massive and rapid change with the pandemic - government's mobilised massive amounts of money - we all accepted lifestyle changes we never dreamt we would have. We have to do the same on the climate and biodiversity crisis.
ps One for the Brighton subscribers but I'm excited for this next month: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/paddle-out-protest-save-the-date-tickets-611065341887
Love it!
Your work has centred on the health of our oceans, and with SAS it captured the attention of progressive, tuned-in, young(er), and proactive water lovers. Of course, the state of our oceans and our rivers is inextricably linked, but of all the river-focussed action groups in the UK, I've found none that achieve the same level of progressive engagement. Instead they seem very stagnant, tired, and ill-equipped to communicate with those most likely to stand up and make noise. What can existing, and any emerging, river action groups learn from SAS to better reach those who will bring community action to the cause?
I think we are seeing some fantastic tactics from brilliant campaigners like Amy Slack at Rover Action and the amazing team at SOS Whitstable. The toolkit of activism needs the youthful and agile populists like SAS, the policy experts, the collaborators, the communicators, the scientists and much more to drive the change we want to see. It's not always a numbers game.
Two long winded questions really:
1. Given that the cost estimates by the UK government of fully upgrading the UK sewage network to separate wastewater and rainwater (eliminating combined sewers and CSOs) are in the region of £350 billion and £600 billion, I realise these figures are arguable however the sums involved will be large in every scenario. The system of privatised water companies wouldn't withstand the financial pressure under current water rates, not would a publicly owned system without increased cash injection. So ultimately people will have to pay more for their waste water through general taxation or increased water rates. There needs to be a fundamental shift in people's attitude to their own waste, i.e. it's everyone's problem not flushed and forgotten. There's also measures that can be taken to reduce CSO frequency by asking (or paying, or forcing) the public to do things like not pave over their driveways with impermeable surfaces and to use things like water butts to slow water runoff. Again that's about personal ownership of the problem.
How do you think that could be sold to the public and achieved? Or disagree with my points, either will be interesting!
2. Due to decades of underfunding the Environment Agency, and their water quality sampling reducing in frequency, there's currently a significant lack of evidence to identify exactly why many rivers are not meeting water quality standards. There's is evidence that the most significant cause is diffuse pollution from agriculture and urban runoff, more so than sewage in many rivers. Before we spend a raft load of cash on a thing that's the current headline pollution issue (not to minimise the excellent work people like yourself have been doing for many years!), surely we should prioritise asking the government to gather better evidence on sources of pollution to enable us to make evidence based decisions on river water quality improvements?
Won't we risk being in the situation where there's still crap water quality in certain areas and we haven't spent the money in the right place?
Thank you for the great questions Charlie. Let me unpack these.
Firstly, on that range of £350 - £600 billion. This was never properly costed and was always a number presented as part of a full engineering project to have a separate sewage and grey water from surface (rain) water. This was never suggested by eNGOs. Nor was this figure ever explained fully by government and I believe was put into the debate deliberately to scare people, The actually cost to solve the worst of the sewage issue was a fraction of this.
Secondly, the water industry is responsible for hundreds of thousands of pollution events annually totalling millions of hours of sewage pollution being pumped into our rivers and seas. At the same time they're making vast profits. And underinvesting. And avoiding taxes. This is an untenable position for these profiteering monopolies. They are responsible for an estimated 30% of the pollution and they need to get their house in order. Just because there are other polluting industries doesn't get them off the hook.
The data on sewage spills should help them prioritise areas for investment and the right location specific solutions.
Thanks for the reply Hugo. I thought you'd point out the disparity between the government figures and the ones from eNGOs on making changes to the system. I think we can safely say it's not going to be a simple fix, and in terms of costs we need to compare apples with apples and also agree on what we're actually looking to achieve. I whole heartedly agree that money to make a workable system shouldn't be lost to shareholders (though there's a question regarding pension funds in there...). Having worked as an environmental professional for a privatised utility in the past (gas distribution), I like to think I made a real and positive impact in that job but I've seen first hand the expectation of shareholder payback and always felt uncomfortable with the system as it stands. In its current form it in no way represents good value for money for rate payers and in the case of water, definitely not for the environment either.
In terms of waste water contributing to 30% of the pollution in our rivers. That still leaves 70% and that 70% includes pollution from sources such as farming - which is a big contributor to the struggle to get inland bathing waters signed off (that and the dearth of water quality data). Light touch regulation of farmers can't continue.
Thanks again for the reply, and we really need people like yourself to challenge governments and individuals to do better for the environment. I've worked in environmental jobs for nearly 20 years now and it feels like we've just spent at least a decade standing still
Sorry for length, too much time on a long train journey!
Hugo how did you know it was time to leave SAS?
Good question! I led SAS for almost 15 years, taking it from near closure to where it is today. When I started it was in challenging place, financially, strategically and structurally. I'm so pleased to have founded so many initiatives there that now continue to lift it - from the exposure of water company CSO discharges, to the plastics campaigns and education programme. Most of all I loved the authentic campaigning - uniting people at the beachfront to challenge industry. As a surfer, this was always so important to me. SAS will always be like a child to me and I’m proud to see it continue to grow.
I was always to work within a more international context and organisation, and was for a number of years doing this in part with SAS. So I was considering a move and when Oceana came to me it was an opportunity and new experience I couldn't refuse. I'm working with amazing teams in Chile, Mexico, Belize, the Philippines and many other places. And stoked to be building a new team and great campaigns from Cornwall again.
15 years is a long time and I knew SAS wasn't the last place I'd lead campaigns. Change and renewal are great and I'm still working on water quality with my High Court challenge to the government with the Good Law Project.
I'll always be grateful for my time leading and transforming SAS, and will always have a huge place in my heart for the charity and all the brilliant people involved. It's amazing.
great question!
I’m going to start us off this week. Hugo - how are water companies in the UK getting away with this, and what can ordinary people do to try and change things? Protests seem to make no difference.
Great question. Really the water industry should not be able to disperse the vast dividends it gives out until it sorts out the problem. You can't be making huge profits whilst underinvesting and polluting. We also need to take the government to the High Court to challenge an inadequate plan of action to stop sewage pollution. I'm stoked to be doing this with the Good Law Project.