Me and Liam, Jackson Hole, January 2022. Photo: Owen
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Back in February, after the Revelstoke leg of this year’s Natural Selection Tour went off so successfully, I wrote the following on Instagram about this week’s Open Thread guest Liam Griffin:
“That Natural Selection spectacle we all enjoyed yesterday simply would not have been possible without Liam. Travis is the frontman who dreams big; LG is the guy who actually makes it happen behind the scenes.
Like everybody, I was blown away by the riding yesterday. But I was also in awe at the sheer scale of what Liam and his team pulled off. It’s got to be up there as the most complex event and broadcast project in professional sport”.
I stand by those words. And in this week’s Open Thread, open to free and paid subscribers, Liam has generously agreed to answer questions about Natural Selection and anything else you want to ask the most sought-after event organiser and planner in the snowboarding business. This is a peerless opportunity to put your questions to one of the sharpest, smartest and most quietly-influential figures in the snowboarding world, so get ‘em in below.
Liam and my friends at Yeti have also offered a some exclusive Yeti x NS memorabilia as prize for the best question in the comments! I’ll pick a winner once the Thread is finished. (This contest is only open to paid subscribers, as will all future Open Thread contests featuring prizes from my pals at Yeti, Danner, Db, Patagonia, Finisterre and Goodrays).
Just wanted to say we loved Natural Selection and as snowboarders just back from an epic Whistler trip, we could truly appreciate how freaking talented & balls-out mad the riders are who rode in the finals!
My question to you Liam is this; with Travis being so successful in NST since it’s inception, do you feel it’s time he moved aside to open the playing field up for another rider to claim top slot? Mikkel is the obvious contender for the crown, but with Travis no longer being a threat, would the other riders push even harder as they all have a shot at victory?
Super grateful to you and all at NST for giving us our own “World Cup” and I can’t wait to see its progression going forward.
"with Travis being so successful in NST since it’s inception, do you feel it’s time he moved aside to open the playing field up for another rider to claim top slot?" - in short, no.
I also don't really see it that way either... looking at results for the past 3 years. In year 1 at Jackson Travis was taken out in quarterfinals against Mark McMorris and didn't qualify to go to AK.
Year 2 at Jackson he came in 7th, just making the cut to go to BC. Ended up in 3rd at Baldface after getting taken out by Craven in semis. Won in AK against Torstein, but in the final round that got called after 1 run due to weather.
Year 3 (this season) he won in BC and in AK, but I'd say was close in both his quarters heat with Rasman and his final heat with Mikkel.
"with Travis no longer being a threat, would the other riders push even harder as they all have a shot at victory" - again, no. I think Travis pushes everybody to ride harder, as does Zoi on the women's side of things.
Side note here: I've asked people before if it was weird that Terje still rode at the Arctic Challenge, or that Danny Davis rides at Peace Park. Those guys both pushed (and in Danny's case still pushes) riders to perform their best at their event. To NOT have them ride (or not have Travis ride) I think would be weird.
Thank you for the reply Liam. Trust me - I am huge Travis fan so was not looking to remove him from greatness in the future, just wanted your take as one who knows the inner workings of NST and the riders more than most. Appreciate you taking the time and look forward to next years NST already!
Specific debates, or just in general? I'll take some time to break down some general thoughts but happy to provide my personal opinions on specific heats if that helps.
Personally I think the hardest conversation to have about judging is the idea that judges have to compare Travis to people who don’t have any influence on whether they are invited to judge at next year’s event. This is an issue that goes all the way back to the beginning of judged snowboarding events. Craig Kelly’s friend and mentor Jeffrey Fulton faced this dilemma when he was a judge on the world tour. In retrospect he feels he may have hurt Craig’s career by intentionally scoring him lower than Palmer to prove he wasn’t biased even though he felt that Craig’s run was better. How can the Natural Selection audience feel assured that Travis’s involvement with event coordination doesn’t sway the judging in his favour?
In regards to the question below and the mention of World Cup - have you thought about the value in having just 1 event per year? The first year in Jackson was mind blowing. Attainable, aspirational, new perspective, access in terms of film angles never before seen and the best riders. With 3 events a year do you worry about the Christmas everyday syndrome for viewers?
We've definitely had discussions about the best long term strategy for number of events. NST was originally envisioned as a Tour, an evolution from the original Natural Selection event at Jackson in 2008, then the Supernatural and Ultra Natural events at Baldface in 2012-2013.
Rolling things out over the past 3 seasons and establishing the NST brand, a 3 stop tour was definitely the way to go, with year 2 (Jackson, Baldface, AK) being probably the most accurate representation of what we set out to do. Showcasing different rider's skills at different locations (much like the WSL) is sort of how most video parts break down, so trying to replicate that seasonal progression is definitely something we're trying to replicate and preserve.
The "World Cup" approach as you put it, with one major event per season, has definitely been talked about. We're definitely still evolving the whole Tour concept, trying to figure out what works best for riders, media & viewers.
thanks Liam! very cool and love to see where it goes. All I know is damn you've come a long way from US Open in Stratton. I'd never seen iced up trees before. AK looks a lot more fun.
Final one.... anyways to get one of these going in Europe? On the wangl in Mayrhofen would be amazing but I guess we just don't have the consistent snow to make it happen in a set window.
We've been looking for the right resort partner in Europe for years! And yes, the Wangl face would be insane (I have a whole folder of images of that face, including a whole plan for how to make it work). Europe has been a tough nut for us to crack to be honest, we're still looking to the future to make it happen. If you have suggestions, send them my way.
PS. re: Stratton ice storm, that was pretty much one of the worst events of my life. Two ice storms in one week, cable cams frozen to the ground, all the judge and camera scaffolding covered with inch thick ice, twice. I may still have PTSD from that one.
Hi Liam, firstly thanks for organising such a great snowboarding competition🙏
My questions:
We hear a lot about how the organisers and riders work together to organise each leg of the competition but is there ever any conflict or differing opinions here? If so, how do you resolve this, who has the final say?
Secondly other than a couple of Scandinavian riders there is a definite absence of wider European riders. I'm interested to know if they get invited and if they turn down the chance to compete or is it just a case of them not being invited? And kind of related to this, are there any plans to hold round in Europe for future NSTs?
Also for what its worth I'd like to see Travis (and other overall winners) continue to take part rather than see him move aside.
Re: Decision making... We're likely a bit democratic here, maybe even to a fault. I'm big on rider meetings for important decisions, and consensus rules. Some of the more controversial mid season changes have come out of rider meetings we've done in the past. When I worked for Burton, one thing Jake instilled in me was "listen to the riders" and I've carried that with me for a long time. To be clear, Travis has the same vote as any other rider, and actively removes himself from any organizer role when we do rider meetings, and he and I don't always agree on consensus decisions. It is really important to the credibility of the tour that the riders all have an equal voice, and I take that very seriously.
Re: European riders. We've had a few folks decline invites from that side of the pond, sometimes due to logistics/time commitments, sometimes due to lack of experience in the sort of terrain where we're staging the events. I personally really respect folks who say "I'm not ready yet" and then take the time to put the work in before accepting an invite. The Selection Committee does really take seriously the goal of having a diverse field of riders from different backgrounds, both in terms of riding style and geographic spread.
As mentioned below in my other response re: Europe, we're definitely still on the hunt for the right resort partner with the right type of terrain.
Do you think that there is something intrinsically snowboard-only about this event? Or could you imagine opening it up to skiers as well, or running a similar skiing event in parallel?
Long term I think we could definitely look to skiing as a potential new sport for a Natural Selection style event, but we'd really need a skier (or group of skiers) to play an active role in making that happen. We're all snowboarders, we know what we know... and what we don't. The last thing I would ever want to do is step into a space like skiing and pretending I know anything about it as a lifelong snowboarder. We've seen how that goes when the opposite has happened.
Thanks! I'm someone who came to snow sports well after snowboarding was already in the Olympics, but I've heard the stories from this podcast!
I asked the question because in an event like this, where the enormity and challenge of the terrain is such a big focus, and just making it down a run is already a success, I could imagine the divide between whether you do that on a board or ski's becoming much less important.
It's been so much fun to watch this year. Thanks for all of the hard work!
Firstly I would like to say thanks for everything you and the team have put into creating such an iconic event - my question for you is:
Considering the growth of NST since the first event in Jackson, did you see it being as successful as it was 5 years prior and where do you see it being in 5 years time?
Just to also touch on Steve’s comment below around expanding into Europe/bringing in a broader demographic of riders - has there ever been thought to offer “wildcard” invites from smaller scale events that would follow a similar format?
Well, we're three seasons deep at this point... and this year was completely different than either year 1 or year 2. Evolution is constant, so honestly really had to say where we'll be in 5 years.
Would love to have a stop in Europe and a stop in Japan. Would love to already have those stops online actually, but Covid and other factors have made that challenging. Finding another solid resort partner in the lower 48 to replace Jackson is still something we're working on. Long term we need more partnerships like Revelstoke where the resort and the community really step up to support the riders and the whole event.
Figuring out a qualifying process, qualifier events, maybe more duels between wildcards to find other ways of getting people on tour is definitely a goal. Using results from other events for wildcards could be a thing again (Sage and Mark both got wildcards to Baldface back in 2012 & 2013, which was rad). The key with all this is to set people up for success, nobody wants to see somebody struggle to land in powder and just tomahawk down a face multiple times.
I’ve got one! I got a comment on Insta the other day saying the tour should move away from AK because it’s not relatable for the average rider. So which party is more important when it comes to making decisions, especially around broadcast: the viewing public or the riders?
When it comes to making most decisions, riders first 100%. If the event (and the tour) doesn't listen to the riders first... we're not doing our job. AK is, and will likely always be, the penultimate riding goal for any backcountry rider in any given season. If that doesn't translate well to viewers, we'll have to figure that part out in the long run, but I wouldn't see us not doing an event in AK just because people "don't get it"
1. I've had the pleasure of working with the team at Backcountry the past 3 seasons to put together our staff kits, so we ALL look good. That said, work kits tend to be a bit more practical in terms of features and colors, so I tend to personally get one color way different than the rest of the team so I can be found in a sea of uniforms.
2. I got my start in events as a DJ, with Tech 12s and a mixer. House, techno and underground parties in the 90s were quite a thing, and I still have my full vinyl setup at home that occasionally gets a family dance party growing. With work in the backcountry, you might occasionally catch me dancing to stay warm up top... but the key these days is booking good talent for the afterparty!
3. My work life is one giant spreadsheet. My home life is not... I can't apply that same level of focus to things around the house or it would drive me insane. My wife can also attest to the fact that I find it really hard to go out to events or shows and just enjoy it for what it is. I'm always looking at things through a different lens, so it is sometimes hard to "switch off" the logistics brain and just be present instead of overanalyzing things I see that others might not.
4. Climbing (both ice and rock) are really additive to any mountain experience, summer or winter. Ice climbing in particular is a great mental balance, especially here on the east coast where winter is often punctuated by thaw/freeze cycles that leave the mountains icy. Bad conditions for riding, great conditions for ice climbing. I'd rather have a good day out than a bad one, so sometimes that means ice climbing instead of snowboarding. Also from a practical standpoint, I'm comfortable with rope work, rescue, heights and other skills which could be super useful in the right situation, so it never hurts to have fun sharpening those skills.
5. Basically, one of the kids wanted to be an Ewok for Halloween. We have a pretty big annual Halloween bike ride here, so I had to build an entire costume around the Ewok, with me as Luke on the Speederbike (which I built around the frame of my cargo bike). It was pretty next level.
Can they all coexist and in an ideal world would the whole tour be live? do you see any benefit to having an actual live show? It’s a logistical nightmare. You must love the hustle. Tim
Live, when it works, is like lightning in a bottle. Revelstoke this year for example was insane! Jackson in year one, bonkers! It is hard to replicate that vibe in post, but live production isn't always technically or logistically possible.
Looking at Duels for example, doing 12 different live productions in 12 different locations, would have been completely impractical if not impossible. Anybody who has spent a day filming in the backcountry understands how much work it is just to shoot 2 riders do 4 runs each, let alone having a way to produce that live. The other consideration is obviously time... there would be so much dead space between runs, I don't think it would be super compelling to watch.
AK this year as another example, what you saw in the show was about 3 hours that in reality took about 9 hours to shoot from start to finish, with all the moves between the 3 zones in that one venue. That just wouldn't work live, so you'd have to choose a completely different venue, or have these huge breaks in the action. Not saying it isn't possible to do live in AK, but things are SO dynamic up there with changing weather and snow that you need to stay super nimble and flexible. We're already 40+ people for a post produced show, which is a LOT when you're 50 miles deep in the AK backcountry. Live is more like 60+ so to do it safely with an acceptable margin of error you'd need a zone a lot closer, or you'd need more permanent infrastructure like the camp setup we had last season (or most likely a combination of both).
Yeah, overall really happy with this season, especially considering that it was 100% new formats/locations. Duels, new... Revelstoke live, new... Valdez, new...
We're a small startup event company, 3 seasons deep at this point (or 4 if you count the test event/shoot in Jackson). Lots of things are still experimental at this point, so I think you'll continue to see NST evolve. Natural Selection, it is right there in the name, only the strong formats/locations will survive in the long run, but it might take a few iterations of each to get them 100% right.
Thanks for hosting this great thread. I loved watching the Natural Selection this season and wanted to congratulate you and the NST team for pulling off such great events. Achieving an event where the 'value' is so obviously more than the sum of the parts from a cultural perspective, in this high stakes context is beyond impressive. I also think the NST is really great for snowboarding but it's not always easy for me to really explain all that I mean when I say that so I wanted to take the opportunity to ask you some questions along those lines. I am also interested to hear your answer to Steve's question below about how the collaborative decision making approach works in practice and I think my questions are related to that one.
How do you understand the idea that the Natural Selection Tour is valuable to snowboarding for example do you see it as valuable in a cultural or community sense (so more than only a financial/material sense)?
If so, who owns the value (or values?) produced at each event?
Who has the responsibility for looking after the cultural value if you believe that is a thing?
In what way is this similar or different to the responsibility involved in collaborative decision making at operations level? How do the high risk factors involved in all aspects of NST effect this picture for you?
Thanks Lesley for the thoughtful question, I'll do my best to break down my thoughts.
We definitely spend a lot of time thinking about the overall value of the event from a cultural experience perspective, both for the viewer at home and for the folks onsite. It has to be more than just a snowboard competition in the long run if it is really going to have the impact we want it to have. We try to fully engage with the community where we're hosting the event as well, like with the opening ceremony in BC, or the school visits in AK. There need to be touch points where we're giving back, not just blowing into town and leaving without any real connection to where we are.
Travis for sure drives a lot of this personally, the responsibility he takes on with the local stuff kind of blows me away actually. In Valdez he met with City Council, the Mayor, went to the Fire Station, met with the Principals of both schools and set up the school visits we did with the kids there. All that stuff is a ton of extra work, but it really pays off in the long run when you're building bridges to the local community.
As far as the value to snowboarding as a whole, NST is definitely shining a light on a part of the sport that was traditionally looked at mostly by the core. "Video part snowboarding" in a competitive format, broken down in a way that people can understand, and shooting it in a way that makes it compelling for more people to watch. Add to that this new opportunity for riders who had sort of wrapped up their competitive careers to "get back in the gate" and showcase new skills they've been working on. It has been really cool to see the progression the past 3 seasons as riders sort of unlock this new level where they're combining backcountry experience with competitive experience and stepping up to do things that maybe none of us thought was possible before.
One rider last year in AK said to me "that wasn't just the best contest run I've ever done, that was legit the best run I've ever done in my life" or something to that effect. I think that collective lift comes from ALL the riders, where they're pushing each other and supporting each other in ways I've never really seen before in more traditional events, just because the backcountry is so much more dynamic. It isn't unusual to hear riders up top talking about their plans for runs, looking at photos or drone videos and talking through with each other what they want to do. There are no coaches, or team managers... they've just got each other and since they're all the best in the world at what they do, the advice they're giving each other and the confidence that brings, it is crazy to see in person.
Rider meetings, either in person or via zoom pre-event, are also super important and pretty transparent. The judges are involved there too as needed, plus our whole team. We try to be as open and accessible as we can be all season, especially onsite during the event. We're a small team and everybody is super passionate about snowboarding, and I hope that comes through in the final product. We couldn't do this without the riders, so working with them to make these things as good as they can be for all involved is super important to us.
Thanks Liam for the considered answer. I love the way you are consciously blending the themes of collaboration, progression and community engagement in a way that supports both the culture (local and snowboard) and the riders to thrive. I think what you are doing is exceptional as it brings ethical perspectives in different areas alongside excellent performance and that view is often missing in the competition space. Good luck on the next round!
I love Natural Selection and look forward to all the content that drops each year and I usually watch it on the day it happens.
I think the Torstein/Jackson and McMorris/Ciccarelli Duels stood out this year as an example of the strength of the original Natural Selection format, natural terrain plus epic built features.
Is there discussions about including built features in all the event stops or is it logistically impossible?
Natural Selection looks impossibly difficult to create and to ride. As a consumer of snowboarding videos, magazines, and now digital content for over 30 years I’m accustomed to the “illusion” of natural terrain. A beautiful reset on a feature that was sessioned until the riders were ready to try something no one has ever tried before, filmed from several angles by people who have filmed at that spot before has created the most memorable snowboarding clips in my opinion. Like Austen Sweetin’s 7 at Baker in Windslab for example…
Watching riders take their first ever laps down terrain sometimes feels like watching “practice”… and the duels with built features felt exponentially more exciting to me personally. Is that something that caught your attention as well? Will we see a return to venues people have ridden before or built features with predictable landings to encourage bigger tricks? Or is that antithetical to the Natural Selection format?
"Is there discussions about including built features in all the event stops or is it logistically impossible?" - I think this is really venue dependent. For example, I don't see us ever doing natural enhancements or manmade features in AK. The scale of those runs would make it logistically impossible, plus there is so much terrain that doesn't need enhancement that it would be a wasted effort.
The need for built features is super location specific, so it really depends where we actually end up for future stops. I personally always though about it this way, in terms of how a rider puts together a season long video part... you generally start the season building stuff, because the natural stuff isn't really filled in yet. As things progress, you'd building less and less because the backcountry is filling in and natural features are starting to take shape. You're ideally wrapping up the end of your part in AK, where coastal snowpack creates some of the most insane terrain on the planet... so the tour ideally kind of mimics that in a way. I think a whole part of just jumps is boring, just like a whole tour of build features would be boring. Need that balance and progression as the season advances from one location to the next.
Awesome! Thanks Liam! Natural Selection is such a huge part of snowboarding culture, thank you and everyone who works so hard to make it happen! It really is breath taking to watch and I look forward to every drop!! Cheers
Could you ever imagine all this when growing up in western NL? What things do you think are characteristics instilled in you from growing up in a place that isn't known for snowboarding or event creators (from an outside perspective anyway)?
If you told a young impressionable snowboarder from a small town in Western Newfoundland that he'd someday be traveling the world, snowboarding and working with some of the best in the business, I think he'd say you were crazy.
That said, I had a lot of role models from back then in the early days who showed me what WAS possible. Probably the most pivotal moment was when the Burton team came to Newfoundland on a photoshoot in the winter of 93/94. This was pre-internet, content was consumed through magazines and videos. For the first time ever, I saw next year's product before it came out, with my own eyes... and saw things happen in person that I later saw in magazines and videos when they came out the next season. It was a "wizard of Oz" moment where I felt like I finally saw what was going on behind the curtain, and I knew I wanted a part of it.
I think these days, everybody has that access, no matter where you're from. Back then it was a lot more analog so making those connections was harder, so I'm super thankful to folks like Jason O'reilley who made those in person connections possible.
Just wanted to say thanks for organising the greatest live events to watch that I’ve seen in a long time and pushing the boundaries to a new level. Other competitions just do not have the same edge of the seat factor in my opinion.
I really enjoyed the Duels this year my only thoughts were as follows,
The challenger selecting the venue? On their home turf so to speak..could make it more spicy...😂
And maybe a slightly longer Duels section with a bit of banter between the riders etc, it was great dropping a an episode a day..loved it.
"The challenger selecting the venue? On their home turf so to speak..could make it more spicy..."
I think we'd potentially have a rider mutiny on our hands if we told the top ranked riders we were going to start the season off by putting them at a disadvantage.
Another thing people didn't really see was how much extra work the returning riders had to put into helping produce those shoots. We really tried to work with them and their crews so it didn't throw off their season goals, or their filming schedules too much. One bluebird day with good snow usually takes weeks of planning, days of scouting, multiple zoom calls, piles of texts, etc. so it really helped to have riders with more experience taking the lead on all that stuff. Hats off to everybody who stepped up to host a duel this year!
I hear you on the more story/more banter. Editing 12 of these was a serious time crunch because snow was REALLY late/bad in a lot of zones so the back end production timelines were bonkers just to get them out before BC. Still stoked on how they came out though, for an experimental new format in year one.
My question is... Why does it have to be a competition?
To go to the effort of getting the best riders on a unique course/terrain and limiting most of them to a few runs feels like a shame.
If the event is seen as less marketable to big sponsors (often non-snowboarding companies) in a session format is there a future in non-competitive snowboarding?
There are plenty of other opportunities out there for riders to film in the backcountry on their own terms, which we see in video parts every year. The whole idea behind the Natural Selection was to provide a competitive platform that showed the world that same style of riding, but with all the best riders on the best terrain in the best conditions on the same day.
Video part snowboarding will always be the basis by which the core audience will view how a rider performs over the course of a season, but there is something way more raw about doing it in a competitive format where you can't hide anything in the editing. Plus, a much wider audience understands the Rider A vs. Rider B format of the head to heads than will ever understand or watch all the individual video parts that come out in any given year.
That said, I do think NST has an opportunity to pull the riders together in venues for a non-competitive expression session, so stay tuned for something like that in the future.
Been really enjoying the tour the last few years. A couple observations.
The duels qualifying format besides Leanne losing to Hailey all went to the defending champion. Seems like the zones were unfairly familiar to most of the riders minus Trav and Red. Maybe randomize venues to level the playing field?
The judging seems to be favoring Travis heavily the last two years. After rewatching this years finals with Mikkel and Travis there seems to be a serious consensus with the general shred community that Mikkels run was technically more difficult and following the CREDO score Bang should have taken it. At a minimum it should have went to sudden death super finals. Lets see less favoritism and bias next year.
Finally AK is the pinnacle of snowboarding and the Finals should always be in AK. Hopefully in SE AK at some point.
"After rewatching this years finals with Mikkel and Travis there seems to be a serious consensus with the general shred community that Mikkels run was technically more difficult"
Ok, I'll break it down as I saw it... Mikkel's first run in finals was definitely a throw away, I don't think there is any debate there. Ultimately what we're looking at is Travis' first run vs. Mikkel's second. Those two were close, so let's analyze.
Travis' run 1 in finals: air into the line off the cornice, front 1, switch back 1, straight drop, double drop at the bottom with a quick fall. Much bigger line overall with a lot more features linked together, ridden with speed and control. The whole top section of the line is 100% fresh territory till he links into the last feature on Elena's line. Scores an 80, lots of space to improve but with only 2 riders in the finals the judges left lots of space.
Mikkel's run 2 in finals: initially burns a lot of vertical just getting into his line, riding pretty smooth but conservative the whole way down the ridge. If you look in the background you can actually see Travis' line, and he's 3 tricks deep into his line before Mikkel even fully drops into the face. First trick is the front 3 with the scrub/fall, where he did the straight air on run 1. Definitely some loss of control after the 3 getting into the next feature. Back 1 to finish the line, on the same feature where he fell on the back 3 in run 1. Scores a 78, really close to Travis but not quite there.
Breaking it down further, just looking at CREDO.
Creativity: Gotta go with Travis on this one. Mikkel's whole line for run 2 was a repeat of his first run, with some tweaks to the tricks but not the placement of the tricks in the line.
Risk: Travis again. Rode with more speed, did more tricks higher in the line, with more exposure below. Onsighted the whole thing, where Mikkel repeated a line.
Execution: really close here. Always hard when you're judging two lines with falls in them, but Travis looked way more solid on his feet for the whole run till the quick fall at the bottom. Mikkel had some speed control issues between the 3 and the back 1.
Difficulty: Probably Mikkel, just on trick selection. Front three / back 1, vs. air, front 1, swb 1, then two technical drops. Close, but Mikkel takes this criteria.
Overall: Travis. I think if you saw the face in person and saw where the lines were on the face, anybody would agree. This is always something that will be hard to translate to the viewer at home, and something we've actually been working on (run tracking in real time so you can see where riders are going).
At the end, we're talking 2 points of separation, which is super close!
Mikkel 100% killed it in quarters against Ben, and Semis against Craven. Standout rider of the day for sure, and probably one of my favorite riders on the whole tour to watch ride. I think a lot of people felt that way, and that clouds the vibe for finals... BUT, if you break it down just based on the two runs that actually matter, it is pretty clear to me that Travis still won, but not by much.
what a great event, I think one of the things I love so much about NST, beside the insane level of riding, filming and snow conditions, is that being in a ski dominated industry, all the pro skiers I work with and respect do look forward for NST events...
My question :
I have been on a few FWT events and was always in awe regarding the logistics of these stops. NST seems to go even one step farther, with the pow element being crucial, and thus so weather dependent/anxious.
how would you compare to the FWT, in terms of people involved, gear, time schedules, etc.
sidebar question: what a joint event with FWT could look like? I remember fondly when Candide won in Chamonix (he could be a skier to make it happen), and the last stop in Haines...
FWT is a bit of a different beast than NST really, mostly in terms of venue selection. From my perspective they tend to pick faces/venues that lend themselves to more true "freeride" vibe with fewer opportunities for progressive freestyle riding. I think we focus a bit more on finding zones with lots of options for riders to be more creative with their riding, without having too much exposure/gnar.
They also have way more events, which means their calendar is spread out a lot and they're tied to specific windows at different resorts all around Europe, so statistically they're just not going to have the same probability of good snow. I'm not sure what sort of closure timeline they have in place pre-event either, but it often seems like their venues have been ridden quite a bit pre-event so they never get a full reset with great blower conditions. We've been fortunate to do a lot of events pretty deep in the backcountry where that isn't an issue.
Re: sidebar / joint event. My personal opinion here is that since FWT joined forces with FIS, there is no way NST could do a joint event with them in the future. The FIS structure isn't something I'm personally interested in getting involved with in any way. I've seen how that went with the ISF back in the day, and then again with the TTR. Not really down with repeating history a 3rd time.
Long term, we definitely need juniors, qualifying events and a whole feeder structure in order for this thing to work in the long term. Building the pyramid from the top down is tough, and the whole invitation process will always have flaws. Since there isn't a current ranking of the "world's best backcountry riders" you can just pull up on the internet, more events that provide opportunities for riders to progress in natural freeride terrain are definitely needed. We're definitely watching what is going on with IFSA and FWT right now, will be interesting to see where that all goes in the coming years.
Final thought here for the Travis being a rider debate and winning the event.
Without Travis I think NST loses a certain audience. Just look at the speed at which WSL gave Kelly a wildcard to compete the next 12 months to confirm the reliance on legendary names for viewing figures. They couldn't wait to throw one his way.
Let's just ensure we don't start calling Travis the Goat please Liam. Whole of the WSL broadcast team need to have a look at themselves for that, cringe worthy beyond belief. Put the respect on the mans name don't turn it into a gimmick.
Yeah, one thing I don't think people see is how involved (or not) Travis is in different aspects of the event, and there seems to be this perception that he's got a huge advantage because he "picks the venues" or whatever. It isn't like he finds a spot in the backcountry, rides the whole thing multiple times, locks that into the memory banks and puts a "Travis Rice Approved" stamp on the thing before anybody else even gets there.
Like in AK this year, he didn't even set foot on the venue till the same day as all the other riders. I had a bunch of photos that he shot from the air the year prior when he was out with the Fleeting Time / Ark crews after the event in the Tordrillos. I'm pretty sure Mikkel and Ben actually have lines in those films from the actual zone we rode. All the riders get the same photos to study, the same hard drive full of drone footage, the same scope laps... we really try to make it as level a playing field as possible for everybody involved.
The whole Kelly/WSL wildcard thing is wild, especially given the next event is at Kelly's wave pool. If NST ever pulls some bullshit like that and gives Travis a wildcard to AK, feel free to call me out on it.
I think everything has been great always watch and enjoy. Even though you clearly have some of the best riders and they prove it through competition. I’m really getting to know some of them and I can almost call what there going to do at this point by watching for 3 years. I understand it is unfair to cut someone for winning. But there are hundreds of exceptional riders who might look differently at the terrain I wonder if you might have to shake it up just for freshness.
The way our invites have worked every season, the top half of the field automatically gets an invite back, and the bottom half of the field is eliminated for a season to make room for new riders.
That "returning rider protocol" as we refer to it internally means if you earn a spot by finishing in the top half, you get to keep that spot. If you're a new rider who wants to make it to BC/AK, you need to unseat somebody from the top 12 from the year prior. The system for sure isn't perfect, but something that is starting to become apparent is that the experience gained on the tour itself each season ends up being a pretty big competitive advantage. If as a rider you've made it to AK the past 3 seasons and through that experience you now have 3 more trips to AK with some of the best in the world to walk you through what it takes to ride up there, you've got a pretty big advantage over any new rider, which makes you harder to beat.
Long term we do need to figure out ways to give more riders that opportunity, but larger field sizes in backcountry locations like BC/AK don't really work well logistically. 12 riders is already pretty mental in those spots, 24 would be borderline impossible UNLESS we totally reworked the format AND/OR went to a multi day event over multiple venues with a longer weather window that would allow for that many more riders/runs.
The commenting is bizarre. Why so serious? Get rid of the non endemic diversity hires. Allow some humor. Stop commenting like its super serious olympdick quallies. Stop the questions “for the noons IE “explain what its like to ride powder” Whatarewedunehair?
"Get rid of the non endemic diversity hires." - talk about a bizarre comment!
Honestly not even sure how to respond to that. Every commentator we've ever worked with is 100% core/endemic and has a long history either as a professional host, or a professional snowboarder, or more likely both. I'm personally really proud of every host team we've ever used and feel like we strike a really good balance between speaking to the core audience and being welcoming and educational for the more casual viewer as well, without alienating anybody.
Just wanted to say hats off to the whole NST crew for putting on one of the best action sports events ever, and definitely the best one around at the moment. After reading through the whole comment thread (yes, I'm just as much of a boardsport geek as you two) just a few random thoughts. Please note, I've had a couple of beers! Haha!
- The dude who commented about the commenting isn't entirely wrong. He's wrong about the "diversity hires" (think he was talking about Ed & Mary), but the commentary could be a lot looser without alienating all but the most non-core viewer. Yes, Ed and Tim have "shocked" a few grandmas over the years with their Olympic snowboarding commentary, but what they do on the BBC is way funnier and more "entertaining" that what goes on in the boot at NST. I can only imagine if Todd really cut loose in the booth alongside Ed. You have a beer sponsor, right. Crack a few open during the ad breaks and pre-edited pieces!
- Travis is the GOAT, and thank goodness you don't overhype that fact. But, it would be a travesty to put him on the bench just to let some of the young guns have a shot at the title. One of the great things about the 3 years of NST is seeing if McMorris, Craven, or Bang (just to name a few) can take him down.
- The Duels format as an "extra" like in Y2 got me more excited. It seemed as a bonus feature the riders cut loose a bit more, and it was more fun to watch than as a first round of the tour, especially compared the the live webcast at Jackson Hole. I actually thought it was the logical step to take, Duels as the first round, but in hindsight I'd go back to a live webcast à la JH, maybe even with a round robin or leader board format then knockout quarters, semis, finals. I also felt that the Duels round 1 knockout was too weighted towards the returning riders, and producing 12 one-offs must be even harder than one set date & location live event.
- It would be great to see more non-Scandi Euros in the events, but I totally understand the reasoning in the earlier answers on why there aren't more Euro riders. As for Euro event locations, trying to score blower powder is almost impossible nowadays unless it's in a completely off the radar backcountry location. The only resorts with money and logistics are in Switzerland and Andorra, and FWT pretty much have those locked up. But you never know!
- I hate the pre-shaped kickers. If memory serves, there weren't any, or very few in Jackson Hole. Seeing pre-shaped hits in the duels was a total disappointment. Also, as a qualifier into the final two events, the Duels terrains were too eclectic to make things really "fair" for the last two stops. But with for a 24-rider, 3 event, invitational tour it's not the end of the world either.
- FWT v. NST: Two totally different beasts. Even when FWT fans bag on Spain and Andorra as locations, realistically the faces they're riding have bigger cliffs and greater exposure than most anything on the NST. I think they're complementary, not necessarily in competition with each other. I totally agree as well that since FWT has aligned with FIS for financial reasons NST should avoid any "collaboration" events. However, if FWT riders like Marion Haerty or Victor De Le Rue can crossover into NST, or NST riders like Travis taking a FWT wildcard into Japan a few years back, or riders that have done both successfully like Gigi Rüf that's awesome. It shows who are the truly all-round riders that can handle the gnar and the fun backcountry. NST skiing would be an awesome addition, but maybe as a separate tour.
- If you can afford to do it, AK should always be the final stop of the tour. FWT is focused on Verbier, its birthplace, but NST should claim AK. I totally understand the pre-produced events broadcasted "as live" afterwards, but it you could give us a true live broadcast from AK like you did from Jackson, then Liam, you too would become the GOAT of contest organizing.
I couldn't let this thread go by without throwing in my 2 cents worth. When I was at Quiksilver, Jasper Sanders and I had always dreamed about doing a NST style slopestyle event in Les Arcs, first as part of the Quik Cup (we thought the freeride aspect would level the playing field for the surfers and skaters), then for the Quiksilver Slopestyle Pro, but trying to get even the Quiky big wigs, let alone the crew from Les Arcs onboard turned out to be impossible. Funnily enough, at the same time, skier cross star Enak Gavaggio of Rancho Webshow fame was running the Les Arcs Freeride Ski event that we "sponsored" in exchange for them helping us out with our snowboard event.
Dave! Great comments all around, you've basically answered all your own questions as well, making it easy for me. Appreciate all the constructive feedback from somebody who definitely "gets it" if you know what I mean.
Hi Liam & Matt,
Just wanted to say we loved Natural Selection and as snowboarders just back from an epic Whistler trip, we could truly appreciate how freaking talented & balls-out mad the riders are who rode in the finals!
My question to you Liam is this; with Travis being so successful in NST since it’s inception, do you feel it’s time he moved aside to open the playing field up for another rider to claim top slot? Mikkel is the obvious contender for the crown, but with Travis no longer being a threat, would the other riders push even harder as they all have a shot at victory?
Super grateful to you and all at NST for giving us our own “World Cup” and I can’t wait to see its progression going forward.
Thanks both.
"with Travis being so successful in NST since it’s inception, do you feel it’s time he moved aside to open the playing field up for another rider to claim top slot?" - in short, no.
I also don't really see it that way either... looking at results for the past 3 years. In year 1 at Jackson Travis was taken out in quarterfinals against Mark McMorris and didn't qualify to go to AK.
Year 2 at Jackson he came in 7th, just making the cut to go to BC. Ended up in 3rd at Baldface after getting taken out by Craven in semis. Won in AK against Torstein, but in the final round that got called after 1 run due to weather.
Year 3 (this season) he won in BC and in AK, but I'd say was close in both his quarters heat with Rasman and his final heat with Mikkel.
"with Travis no longer being a threat, would the other riders push even harder as they all have a shot at victory" - again, no. I think Travis pushes everybody to ride harder, as does Zoi on the women's side of things.
Side note here: I've asked people before if it was weird that Terje still rode at the Arctic Challenge, or that Danny Davis rides at Peace Park. Those guys both pushed (and in Danny's case still pushes) riders to perform their best at their event. To NOT have them ride (or not have Travis ride) I think would be weird.
Thank you for the reply Liam. Trust me - I am huge Travis fan so was not looking to remove him from greatness in the future, just wanted your take as one who knows the inner workings of NST and the riders more than most. Appreciate you taking the time and look forward to next years NST already!
What do you think about the debate about the judging?
Specific debates, or just in general? I'll take some time to break down some general thoughts but happy to provide my personal opinions on specific heats if that helps.
Personally I think the hardest conversation to have about judging is the idea that judges have to compare Travis to people who don’t have any influence on whether they are invited to judge at next year’s event. This is an issue that goes all the way back to the beginning of judged snowboarding events. Craig Kelly’s friend and mentor Jeffrey Fulton faced this dilemma when he was a judge on the world tour. In retrospect he feels he may have hurt Craig’s career by intentionally scoring him lower than Palmer to prove he wasn’t biased even though he felt that Craig’s run was better. How can the Natural Selection audience feel assured that Travis’s involvement with event coordination doesn’t sway the judging in his favour?
I guess I mean this perception that Travis is being judged more favourably (Mikel and Rasman spring to mind)
Did a pretty lengthy breakdown in another thread below. Give it a read and let me know what you think!
In regards to the question below and the mention of World Cup - have you thought about the value in having just 1 event per year? The first year in Jackson was mind blowing. Attainable, aspirational, new perspective, access in terms of film angles never before seen and the best riders. With 3 events a year do you worry about the Christmas everyday syndrome for viewers?
We've definitely had discussions about the best long term strategy for number of events. NST was originally envisioned as a Tour, an evolution from the original Natural Selection event at Jackson in 2008, then the Supernatural and Ultra Natural events at Baldface in 2012-2013.
Rolling things out over the past 3 seasons and establishing the NST brand, a 3 stop tour was definitely the way to go, with year 2 (Jackson, Baldface, AK) being probably the most accurate representation of what we set out to do. Showcasing different rider's skills at different locations (much like the WSL) is sort of how most video parts break down, so trying to replicate that seasonal progression is definitely something we're trying to replicate and preserve.
The "World Cup" approach as you put it, with one major event per season, has definitely been talked about. We're definitely still evolving the whole Tour concept, trying to figure out what works best for riders, media & viewers.
thanks Liam! very cool and love to see where it goes. All I know is damn you've come a long way from US Open in Stratton. I'd never seen iced up trees before. AK looks a lot more fun.
Final one.... anyways to get one of these going in Europe? On the wangl in Mayrhofen would be amazing but I guess we just don't have the consistent snow to make it happen in a set window.
We've been looking for the right resort partner in Europe for years! And yes, the Wangl face would be insane (I have a whole folder of images of that face, including a whole plan for how to make it work). Europe has been a tough nut for us to crack to be honest, we're still looking to the future to make it happen. If you have suggestions, send them my way.
PS. re: Stratton ice storm, that was pretty much one of the worst events of my life. Two ice storms in one week, cable cams frozen to the ground, all the judge and camera scaffolding covered with inch thick ice, twice. I may still have PTSD from that one.
Hi Liam, firstly thanks for organising such a great snowboarding competition🙏
My questions:
We hear a lot about how the organisers and riders work together to organise each leg of the competition but is there ever any conflict or differing opinions here? If so, how do you resolve this, who has the final say?
Secondly other than a couple of Scandinavian riders there is a definite absence of wider European riders. I'm interested to know if they get invited and if they turn down the chance to compete or is it just a case of them not being invited? And kind of related to this, are there any plans to hold round in Europe for future NSTs?
Also for what its worth I'd like to see Travis (and other overall winners) continue to take part rather than see him move aside.
Thanks
Steve
Re: Decision making... We're likely a bit democratic here, maybe even to a fault. I'm big on rider meetings for important decisions, and consensus rules. Some of the more controversial mid season changes have come out of rider meetings we've done in the past. When I worked for Burton, one thing Jake instilled in me was "listen to the riders" and I've carried that with me for a long time. To be clear, Travis has the same vote as any other rider, and actively removes himself from any organizer role when we do rider meetings, and he and I don't always agree on consensus decisions. It is really important to the credibility of the tour that the riders all have an equal voice, and I take that very seriously.
Re: European riders. We've had a few folks decline invites from that side of the pond, sometimes due to logistics/time commitments, sometimes due to lack of experience in the sort of terrain where we're staging the events. I personally really respect folks who say "I'm not ready yet" and then take the time to put the work in before accepting an invite. The Selection Committee does really take seriously the goal of having a diverse field of riders from different backgrounds, both in terms of riding style and geographic spread.
As mentioned below in my other response re: Europe, we're definitely still on the hunt for the right resort partner with the right type of terrain.
Thanks Liam 👊
Do you think that there is something intrinsically snowboard-only about this event? Or could you imagine opening it up to skiers as well, or running a similar skiing event in parallel?
Long term I think we could definitely look to skiing as a potential new sport for a Natural Selection style event, but we'd really need a skier (or group of skiers) to play an active role in making that happen. We're all snowboarders, we know what we know... and what we don't. The last thing I would ever want to do is step into a space like skiing and pretending I know anything about it as a lifelong snowboarder. We've seen how that goes when the opposite has happened.
Thanks! I'm someone who came to snow sports well after snowboarding was already in the Olympics, but I've heard the stories from this podcast!
I asked the question because in an event like this, where the enormity and challenge of the terrain is such a big focus, and just making it down a run is already a success, I could imagine the divide between whether you do that on a board or ski's becoming much less important.
It's been so much fun to watch this year. Thanks for all of the hard work!
Hi Liam (and Matt),
Firstly I would like to say thanks for everything you and the team have put into creating such an iconic event - my question for you is:
Considering the growth of NST since the first event in Jackson, did you see it being as successful as it was 5 years prior and where do you see it being in 5 years time?
Just to also touch on Steve’s comment below around expanding into Europe/bringing in a broader demographic of riders - has there ever been thought to offer “wildcard” invites from smaller scale events that would follow a similar format?
Thanks and all the best,
Angus
Well, we're three seasons deep at this point... and this year was completely different than either year 1 or year 2. Evolution is constant, so honestly really had to say where we'll be in 5 years.
Would love to have a stop in Europe and a stop in Japan. Would love to already have those stops online actually, but Covid and other factors have made that challenging. Finding another solid resort partner in the lower 48 to replace Jackson is still something we're working on. Long term we need more partnerships like Revelstoke where the resort and the community really step up to support the riders and the whole event.
Figuring out a qualifying process, qualifier events, maybe more duels between wildcards to find other ways of getting people on tour is definitely a goal. Using results from other events for wildcards could be a thing again (Sage and Mark both got wildcards to Baldface back in 2012 & 2013, which was rad). The key with all this is to set people up for success, nobody wants to see somebody struggle to land in powder and just tomahawk down a face multiple times.
I’ve got one! I got a comment on Insta the other day saying the tour should move away from AK because it’s not relatable for the average rider. So which party is more important when it comes to making decisions, especially around broadcast: the viewing public or the riders?
When it comes to making most decisions, riders first 100%. If the event (and the tour) doesn't listen to the riders first... we're not doing our job. AK is, and will likely always be, the penultimate riding goal for any backcountry rider in any given season. If that doesn't translate well to viewers, we'll have to figure that part out in the long run, but I wouldn't see us not doing an event in AK just because people "don't get it"
LG - Questions the people need answers for.
1. Your outfits. I recall you having the drippiest looks on the slope when you were working on the Burton series. Please tell me this continues.
2. House and Techno DJ as well as playing the horn (is that right?), what role does music currently play in your life?
3. You clearly love numbers and logistics, how does this understanding of the world manifest itself outside of snowboarding?
4. Tell us about climbing and how that plays into your lens of the natural world.
5. I personally want to hear the story of the Star Wars Speeder fancy dress bike - It's next level.
PY! Those are some heavy ones...
1. I've had the pleasure of working with the team at Backcountry the past 3 seasons to put together our staff kits, so we ALL look good. That said, work kits tend to be a bit more practical in terms of features and colors, so I tend to personally get one color way different than the rest of the team so I can be found in a sea of uniforms.
2. I got my start in events as a DJ, with Tech 12s and a mixer. House, techno and underground parties in the 90s were quite a thing, and I still have my full vinyl setup at home that occasionally gets a family dance party growing. With work in the backcountry, you might occasionally catch me dancing to stay warm up top... but the key these days is booking good talent for the afterparty!
3. My work life is one giant spreadsheet. My home life is not... I can't apply that same level of focus to things around the house or it would drive me insane. My wife can also attest to the fact that I find it really hard to go out to events or shows and just enjoy it for what it is. I'm always looking at things through a different lens, so it is sometimes hard to "switch off" the logistics brain and just be present instead of overanalyzing things I see that others might not.
4. Climbing (both ice and rock) are really additive to any mountain experience, summer or winter. Ice climbing in particular is a great mental balance, especially here on the east coast where winter is often punctuated by thaw/freeze cycles that leave the mountains icy. Bad conditions for riding, great conditions for ice climbing. I'd rather have a good day out than a bad one, so sometimes that means ice climbing instead of snowboarding. Also from a practical standpoint, I'm comfortable with rope work, rescue, heights and other skills which could be super useful in the right situation, so it never hurts to have fun sharpening those skills.
5. Basically, one of the kids wanted to be an Ewok for Halloween. We have a pretty big annual Halloween bike ride here, so I had to build an entire costume around the Ewok, with me as Luke on the Speederbike (which I built around the frame of my cargo bike). It was pretty next level.
Hey Liam. Love the show!
Duels vs Pre record vs the live
Can they all coexist and in an ideal world would the whole tour be live? do you see any benefit to having an actual live show? It’s a logistical nightmare. You must love the hustle. Tim
Live, when it works, is like lightning in a bottle. Revelstoke this year for example was insane! Jackson in year one, bonkers! It is hard to replicate that vibe in post, but live production isn't always technically or logistically possible.
Looking at Duels for example, doing 12 different live productions in 12 different locations, would have been completely impractical if not impossible. Anybody who has spent a day filming in the backcountry understands how much work it is just to shoot 2 riders do 4 runs each, let alone having a way to produce that live. The other consideration is obviously time... there would be so much dead space between runs, I don't think it would be super compelling to watch.
AK this year as another example, what you saw in the show was about 3 hours that in reality took about 9 hours to shoot from start to finish, with all the moves between the 3 zones in that one venue. That just wouldn't work live, so you'd have to choose a completely different venue, or have these huge breaks in the action. Not saying it isn't possible to do live in AK, but things are SO dynamic up there with changing weather and snow that you need to stay super nimble and flexible. We're already 40+ people for a post produced show, which is a LOT when you're 50 miles deep in the AK backcountry. Live is more like 60+ so to do it safely with an acceptable margin of error you'd need a zone a lot closer, or you'd need more permanent infrastructure like the camp setup we had last season (or most likely a combination of both).
Yep. 100%.
There’s so many moving parts that the armchair warrior doesn’t take into account!
Are you happy with the result of three different types of show?
And is that something you’ll replicate moving forward?
Yeah, overall really happy with this season, especially considering that it was 100% new formats/locations. Duels, new... Revelstoke live, new... Valdez, new...
We're a small startup event company, 3 seasons deep at this point (or 4 if you count the test event/shoot in Jackson). Lots of things are still experimental at this point, so I think you'll continue to see NST evolve. Natural Selection, it is right there in the name, only the strong formats/locations will survive in the long run, but it might take a few iterations of each to get them 100% right.
Well played! And Well done. I’m happy to sit back and watch it all evolve.
Hi Liam and Matt,
Thanks for hosting this great thread. I loved watching the Natural Selection this season and wanted to congratulate you and the NST team for pulling off such great events. Achieving an event where the 'value' is so obviously more than the sum of the parts from a cultural perspective, in this high stakes context is beyond impressive. I also think the NST is really great for snowboarding but it's not always easy for me to really explain all that I mean when I say that so I wanted to take the opportunity to ask you some questions along those lines. I am also interested to hear your answer to Steve's question below about how the collaborative decision making approach works in practice and I think my questions are related to that one.
How do you understand the idea that the Natural Selection Tour is valuable to snowboarding for example do you see it as valuable in a cultural or community sense (so more than only a financial/material sense)?
If so, who owns the value (or values?) produced at each event?
Who has the responsibility for looking after the cultural value if you believe that is a thing?
In what way is this similar or different to the responsibility involved in collaborative decision making at operations level? How do the high risk factors involved in all aspects of NST effect this picture for you?
Thank you!
Thanks Lesley for the thoughtful question, I'll do my best to break down my thoughts.
We definitely spend a lot of time thinking about the overall value of the event from a cultural experience perspective, both for the viewer at home and for the folks onsite. It has to be more than just a snowboard competition in the long run if it is really going to have the impact we want it to have. We try to fully engage with the community where we're hosting the event as well, like with the opening ceremony in BC, or the school visits in AK. There need to be touch points where we're giving back, not just blowing into town and leaving without any real connection to where we are.
Travis for sure drives a lot of this personally, the responsibility he takes on with the local stuff kind of blows me away actually. In Valdez he met with City Council, the Mayor, went to the Fire Station, met with the Principals of both schools and set up the school visits we did with the kids there. All that stuff is a ton of extra work, but it really pays off in the long run when you're building bridges to the local community.
As far as the value to snowboarding as a whole, NST is definitely shining a light on a part of the sport that was traditionally looked at mostly by the core. "Video part snowboarding" in a competitive format, broken down in a way that people can understand, and shooting it in a way that makes it compelling for more people to watch. Add to that this new opportunity for riders who had sort of wrapped up their competitive careers to "get back in the gate" and showcase new skills they've been working on. It has been really cool to see the progression the past 3 seasons as riders sort of unlock this new level where they're combining backcountry experience with competitive experience and stepping up to do things that maybe none of us thought was possible before.
One rider last year in AK said to me "that wasn't just the best contest run I've ever done, that was legit the best run I've ever done in my life" or something to that effect. I think that collective lift comes from ALL the riders, where they're pushing each other and supporting each other in ways I've never really seen before in more traditional events, just because the backcountry is so much more dynamic. It isn't unusual to hear riders up top talking about their plans for runs, looking at photos or drone videos and talking through with each other what they want to do. There are no coaches, or team managers... they've just got each other and since they're all the best in the world at what they do, the advice they're giving each other and the confidence that brings, it is crazy to see in person.
Rider meetings, either in person or via zoom pre-event, are also super important and pretty transparent. The judges are involved there too as needed, plus our whole team. We try to be as open and accessible as we can be all season, especially onsite during the event. We're a small team and everybody is super passionate about snowboarding, and I hope that comes through in the final product. We couldn't do this without the riders, so working with them to make these things as good as they can be for all involved is super important to us.
Thanks Liam for the considered answer. I love the way you are consciously blending the themes of collaboration, progression and community engagement in a way that supports both the culture (local and snowboard) and the riders to thrive. I think what you are doing is exceptional as it brings ethical perspectives in different areas alongside excellent performance and that view is often missing in the competition space. Good luck on the next round!
Hey guys!
I love Natural Selection and look forward to all the content that drops each year and I usually watch it on the day it happens.
I think the Torstein/Jackson and McMorris/Ciccarelli Duels stood out this year as an example of the strength of the original Natural Selection format, natural terrain plus epic built features.
Is there discussions about including built features in all the event stops or is it logistically impossible?
Natural Selection looks impossibly difficult to create and to ride. As a consumer of snowboarding videos, magazines, and now digital content for over 30 years I’m accustomed to the “illusion” of natural terrain. A beautiful reset on a feature that was sessioned until the riders were ready to try something no one has ever tried before, filmed from several angles by people who have filmed at that spot before has created the most memorable snowboarding clips in my opinion. Like Austen Sweetin’s 7 at Baker in Windslab for example…
Watching riders take their first ever laps down terrain sometimes feels like watching “practice”… and the duels with built features felt exponentially more exciting to me personally. Is that something that caught your attention as well? Will we see a return to venues people have ridden before or built features with predictable landings to encourage bigger tricks? Or is that antithetical to the Natural Selection format?
Huge NS fan,
Erik
"Is there discussions about including built features in all the event stops or is it logistically impossible?" - I think this is really venue dependent. For example, I don't see us ever doing natural enhancements or manmade features in AK. The scale of those runs would make it logistically impossible, plus there is so much terrain that doesn't need enhancement that it would be a wasted effort.
The need for built features is super location specific, so it really depends where we actually end up for future stops. I personally always though about it this way, in terms of how a rider puts together a season long video part... you generally start the season building stuff, because the natural stuff isn't really filled in yet. As things progress, you'd building less and less because the backcountry is filling in and natural features are starting to take shape. You're ideally wrapping up the end of your part in AK, where coastal snowpack creates some of the most insane terrain on the planet... so the tour ideally kind of mimics that in a way. I think a whole part of just jumps is boring, just like a whole tour of build features would be boring. Need that balance and progression as the season advances from one location to the next.
Awesome! Thanks Liam! Natural Selection is such a huge part of snowboarding culture, thank you and everyone who works so hard to make it happen! It really is breath taking to watch and I look forward to every drop!! Cheers
Built features are the only problem. “NATURAL”selection
The ultimate goal of the whole damn thing should be natural lips
@Liam
Could you ever imagine all this when growing up in western NL? What things do you think are characteristics instilled in you from growing up in a place that isn't known for snowboarding or event creators (from an outside perspective anyway)?
If you told a young impressionable snowboarder from a small town in Western Newfoundland that he'd someday be traveling the world, snowboarding and working with some of the best in the business, I think he'd say you were crazy.
That said, I had a lot of role models from back then in the early days who showed me what WAS possible. Probably the most pivotal moment was when the Burton team came to Newfoundland on a photoshoot in the winter of 93/94. This was pre-internet, content was consumed through magazines and videos. For the first time ever, I saw next year's product before it came out, with my own eyes... and saw things happen in person that I later saw in magazines and videos when they came out the next season. It was a "wizard of Oz" moment where I felt like I finally saw what was going on behind the curtain, and I knew I wanted a part of it.
I think these days, everybody has that access, no matter where you're from. Back then it was a lot more analog so making those connections was harder, so I'm super thankful to folks like Jason O'reilley who made those in person connections possible.
proud of you homie, we've come a long way from skating downtown st.john's.
LG, when you coming back to our hood, crashing in the guest room and surfing with us? Fam misses ya.
Next swell maybe? When are you getting up to VT to ride bikes!?
we do come up to vt to ride bikes just not that far north... yet, although Candy Hill is on the list.
*Cady damn auto correct
and next swell 🤘🤘🤘🤘
Hi Liam,
Just wanted to say thanks for organising the greatest live events to watch that I’ve seen in a long time and pushing the boundaries to a new level. Other competitions just do not have the same edge of the seat factor in my opinion.
I really enjoyed the Duels this year my only thoughts were as follows,
The challenger selecting the venue? On their home turf so to speak..could make it more spicy...😂
And maybe a slightly longer Duels section with a bit of banter between the riders etc, it was great dropping a an episode a day..loved it.
Awesome work, thankyou.
Tom
"The challenger selecting the venue? On their home turf so to speak..could make it more spicy..."
I think we'd potentially have a rider mutiny on our hands if we told the top ranked riders we were going to start the season off by putting them at a disadvantage.
Another thing people didn't really see was how much extra work the returning riders had to put into helping produce those shoots. We really tried to work with them and their crews so it didn't throw off their season goals, or their filming schedules too much. One bluebird day with good snow usually takes weeks of planning, days of scouting, multiple zoom calls, piles of texts, etc. so it really helped to have riders with more experience taking the lead on all that stuff. Hats off to everybody who stepped up to host a duel this year!
I hear you on the more story/more banter. Editing 12 of these was a serious time crunch because snow was REALLY late/bad in a lot of zones so the back end production timelines were bonkers just to get them out before BC. Still stoked on how they came out though, for an experimental new format in year one.
My question is... Why does it have to be a competition?
To go to the effort of getting the best riders on a unique course/terrain and limiting most of them to a few runs feels like a shame.
If the event is seen as less marketable to big sponsors (often non-snowboarding companies) in a session format is there a future in non-competitive snowboarding?
There are plenty of other opportunities out there for riders to film in the backcountry on their own terms, which we see in video parts every year. The whole idea behind the Natural Selection was to provide a competitive platform that showed the world that same style of riding, but with all the best riders on the best terrain in the best conditions on the same day.
Video part snowboarding will always be the basis by which the core audience will view how a rider performs over the course of a season, but there is something way more raw about doing it in a competitive format where you can't hide anything in the editing. Plus, a much wider audience understands the Rider A vs. Rider B format of the head to heads than will ever understand or watch all the individual video parts that come out in any given year.
That said, I do think NST has an opportunity to pull the riders together in venues for a non-competitive expression session, so stay tuned for something like that in the future.
Hey Liam and Matt,
Been really enjoying the tour the last few years. A couple observations.
The duels qualifying format besides Leanne losing to Hailey all went to the defending champion. Seems like the zones were unfairly familiar to most of the riders minus Trav and Red. Maybe randomize venues to level the playing field?
The judging seems to be favoring Travis heavily the last two years. After rewatching this years finals with Mikkel and Travis there seems to be a serious consensus with the general shred community that Mikkels run was technically more difficult and following the CREDO score Bang should have taken it. At a minimum it should have went to sudden death super finals. Lets see less favoritism and bias next year.
Finally AK is the pinnacle of snowboarding and the Finals should always be in AK. Hopefully in SE AK at some point.
Much respect!
"After rewatching this years finals with Mikkel and Travis there seems to be a serious consensus with the general shred community that Mikkels run was technically more difficult"
Ok, I'll break it down as I saw it... Mikkel's first run in finals was definitely a throw away, I don't think there is any debate there. Ultimately what we're looking at is Travis' first run vs. Mikkel's second. Those two were close, so let's analyze.
Travis' run 1 in finals: air into the line off the cornice, front 1, switch back 1, straight drop, double drop at the bottom with a quick fall. Much bigger line overall with a lot more features linked together, ridden with speed and control. The whole top section of the line is 100% fresh territory till he links into the last feature on Elena's line. Scores an 80, lots of space to improve but with only 2 riders in the finals the judges left lots of space.
Mikkel's run 2 in finals: initially burns a lot of vertical just getting into his line, riding pretty smooth but conservative the whole way down the ridge. If you look in the background you can actually see Travis' line, and he's 3 tricks deep into his line before Mikkel even fully drops into the face. First trick is the front 3 with the scrub/fall, where he did the straight air on run 1. Definitely some loss of control after the 3 getting into the next feature. Back 1 to finish the line, on the same feature where he fell on the back 3 in run 1. Scores a 78, really close to Travis but not quite there.
Breaking it down further, just looking at CREDO.
Creativity: Gotta go with Travis on this one. Mikkel's whole line for run 2 was a repeat of his first run, with some tweaks to the tricks but not the placement of the tricks in the line.
Risk: Travis again. Rode with more speed, did more tricks higher in the line, with more exposure below. Onsighted the whole thing, where Mikkel repeated a line.
Execution: really close here. Always hard when you're judging two lines with falls in them, but Travis looked way more solid on his feet for the whole run till the quick fall at the bottom. Mikkel had some speed control issues between the 3 and the back 1.
Difficulty: Probably Mikkel, just on trick selection. Front three / back 1, vs. air, front 1, swb 1, then two technical drops. Close, but Mikkel takes this criteria.
Overall: Travis. I think if you saw the face in person and saw where the lines were on the face, anybody would agree. This is always something that will be hard to translate to the viewer at home, and something we've actually been working on (run tracking in real time so you can see where riders are going).
At the end, we're talking 2 points of separation, which is super close!
Mikkel 100% killed it in quarters against Ben, and Semis against Craven. Standout rider of the day for sure, and probably one of my favorite riders on the whole tour to watch ride. I think a lot of people felt that way, and that clouds the vibe for finals... BUT, if you break it down just based on the two runs that actually matter, it is pretty clear to me that Travis still won, but not by much.
Hi Liam and Matt,
what a great event, I think one of the things I love so much about NST, beside the insane level of riding, filming and snow conditions, is that being in a ski dominated industry, all the pro skiers I work with and respect do look forward for NST events...
My question :
I have been on a few FWT events and was always in awe regarding the logistics of these stops. NST seems to go even one step farther, with the pow element being crucial, and thus so weather dependent/anxious.
how would you compare to the FWT, in terms of people involved, gear, time schedules, etc.
sidebar question: what a joint event with FWT could look like? I remember fondly when Candide won in Chamonix (he could be a skier to make it happen), and the last stop in Haines...
FWT is a bit of a different beast than NST really, mostly in terms of venue selection. From my perspective they tend to pick faces/venues that lend themselves to more true "freeride" vibe with fewer opportunities for progressive freestyle riding. I think we focus a bit more on finding zones with lots of options for riders to be more creative with their riding, without having too much exposure/gnar.
They also have way more events, which means their calendar is spread out a lot and they're tied to specific windows at different resorts all around Europe, so statistically they're just not going to have the same probability of good snow. I'm not sure what sort of closure timeline they have in place pre-event either, but it often seems like their venues have been ridden quite a bit pre-event so they never get a full reset with great blower conditions. We've been fortunate to do a lot of events pretty deep in the backcountry where that isn't an issue.
Re: sidebar / joint event. My personal opinion here is that since FWT joined forces with FIS, there is no way NST could do a joint event with them in the future. The FIS structure isn't something I'm personally interested in getting involved with in any way. I've seen how that went with the ISF back in the day, and then again with the TTR. Not really down with repeating history a 3rd time.
one from the Bean, when is the junior version of the comp going live
Long term, we definitely need juniors, qualifying events and a whole feeder structure in order for this thing to work in the long term. Building the pyramid from the top down is tough, and the whole invitation process will always have flaws. Since there isn't a current ranking of the "world's best backcountry riders" you can just pull up on the internet, more events that provide opportunities for riders to progress in natural freeride terrain are definitely needed. We're definitely watching what is going on with IFSA and FWT right now, will be interesting to see where that all goes in the coming years.
will relay to Bean!
Final thought here for the Travis being a rider debate and winning the event.
Without Travis I think NST loses a certain audience. Just look at the speed at which WSL gave Kelly a wildcard to compete the next 12 months to confirm the reliance on legendary names for viewing figures. They couldn't wait to throw one his way.
Let's just ensure we don't start calling Travis the Goat please Liam. Whole of the WSL broadcast team need to have a look at themselves for that, cringe worthy beyond belief. Put the respect on the mans name don't turn it into a gimmick.
Yeah, one thing I don't think people see is how involved (or not) Travis is in different aspects of the event, and there seems to be this perception that he's got a huge advantage because he "picks the venues" or whatever. It isn't like he finds a spot in the backcountry, rides the whole thing multiple times, locks that into the memory banks and puts a "Travis Rice Approved" stamp on the thing before anybody else even gets there.
Like in AK this year, he didn't even set foot on the venue till the same day as all the other riders. I had a bunch of photos that he shot from the air the year prior when he was out with the Fleeting Time / Ark crews after the event in the Tordrillos. I'm pretty sure Mikkel and Ben actually have lines in those films from the actual zone we rode. All the riders get the same photos to study, the same hard drive full of drone footage, the same scope laps... we really try to make it as level a playing field as possible for everybody involved.
The whole Kelly/WSL wildcard thing is wild, especially given the next event is at Kelly's wave pool. If NST ever pulls some bullshit like that and gives Travis a wildcard to AK, feel free to call me out on it.
I think everything has been great always watch and enjoy. Even though you clearly have some of the best riders and they prove it through competition. I’m really getting to know some of them and I can almost call what there going to do at this point by watching for 3 years. I understand it is unfair to cut someone for winning. But there are hundreds of exceptional riders who might look differently at the terrain I wonder if you might have to shake it up just for freshness.
The way our invites have worked every season, the top half of the field automatically gets an invite back, and the bottom half of the field is eliminated for a season to make room for new riders.
That "returning rider protocol" as we refer to it internally means if you earn a spot by finishing in the top half, you get to keep that spot. If you're a new rider who wants to make it to BC/AK, you need to unseat somebody from the top 12 from the year prior. The system for sure isn't perfect, but something that is starting to become apparent is that the experience gained on the tour itself each season ends up being a pretty big competitive advantage. If as a rider you've made it to AK the past 3 seasons and through that experience you now have 3 more trips to AK with some of the best in the world to walk you through what it takes to ride up there, you've got a pretty big advantage over any new rider, which makes you harder to beat.
Long term we do need to figure out ways to give more riders that opportunity, but larger field sizes in backcountry locations like BC/AK don't really work well logistically. 12 riders is already pretty mental in those spots, 24 would be borderline impossible UNLESS we totally reworked the format AND/OR went to a multi day event over multiple venues with a longer weather window that would allow for that many more riders/runs.
The commenting is bizarre. Why so serious? Get rid of the non endemic diversity hires. Allow some humor. Stop commenting like its super serious olympdick quallies. Stop the questions “for the noons IE “explain what its like to ride powder” Whatarewedunehair?
"Get rid of the non endemic diversity hires." - talk about a bizarre comment!
Honestly not even sure how to respond to that. Every commentator we've ever worked with is 100% core/endemic and has a long history either as a professional host, or a professional snowboarder, or more likely both. I'm personally really proud of every host team we've ever used and feel like we strike a really good balance between speaking to the core audience and being welcoming and educational for the more casual viewer as well, without alienating anybody.
What do you mean by the phrase ‘diversity hire’?
Hi Liam & Matt,
Just wanted to say hats off to the whole NST crew for putting on one of the best action sports events ever, and definitely the best one around at the moment. After reading through the whole comment thread (yes, I'm just as much of a boardsport geek as you two) just a few random thoughts. Please note, I've had a couple of beers! Haha!
- The dude who commented about the commenting isn't entirely wrong. He's wrong about the "diversity hires" (think he was talking about Ed & Mary), but the commentary could be a lot looser without alienating all but the most non-core viewer. Yes, Ed and Tim have "shocked" a few grandmas over the years with their Olympic snowboarding commentary, but what they do on the BBC is way funnier and more "entertaining" that what goes on in the boot at NST. I can only imagine if Todd really cut loose in the booth alongside Ed. You have a beer sponsor, right. Crack a few open during the ad breaks and pre-edited pieces!
- Travis is the GOAT, and thank goodness you don't overhype that fact. But, it would be a travesty to put him on the bench just to let some of the young guns have a shot at the title. One of the great things about the 3 years of NST is seeing if McMorris, Craven, or Bang (just to name a few) can take him down.
- The Duels format as an "extra" like in Y2 got me more excited. It seemed as a bonus feature the riders cut loose a bit more, and it was more fun to watch than as a first round of the tour, especially compared the the live webcast at Jackson Hole. I actually thought it was the logical step to take, Duels as the first round, but in hindsight I'd go back to a live webcast à la JH, maybe even with a round robin or leader board format then knockout quarters, semis, finals. I also felt that the Duels round 1 knockout was too weighted towards the returning riders, and producing 12 one-offs must be even harder than one set date & location live event.
- It would be great to see more non-Scandi Euros in the events, but I totally understand the reasoning in the earlier answers on why there aren't more Euro riders. As for Euro event locations, trying to score blower powder is almost impossible nowadays unless it's in a completely off the radar backcountry location. The only resorts with money and logistics are in Switzerland and Andorra, and FWT pretty much have those locked up. But you never know!
- I hate the pre-shaped kickers. If memory serves, there weren't any, or very few in Jackson Hole. Seeing pre-shaped hits in the duels was a total disappointment. Also, as a qualifier into the final two events, the Duels terrains were too eclectic to make things really "fair" for the last two stops. But with for a 24-rider, 3 event, invitational tour it's not the end of the world either.
- FWT v. NST: Two totally different beasts. Even when FWT fans bag on Spain and Andorra as locations, realistically the faces they're riding have bigger cliffs and greater exposure than most anything on the NST. I think they're complementary, not necessarily in competition with each other. I totally agree as well that since FWT has aligned with FIS for financial reasons NST should avoid any "collaboration" events. However, if FWT riders like Marion Haerty or Victor De Le Rue can crossover into NST, or NST riders like Travis taking a FWT wildcard into Japan a few years back, or riders that have done both successfully like Gigi Rüf that's awesome. It shows who are the truly all-round riders that can handle the gnar and the fun backcountry. NST skiing would be an awesome addition, but maybe as a separate tour.
- If you can afford to do it, AK should always be the final stop of the tour. FWT is focused on Verbier, its birthplace, but NST should claim AK. I totally understand the pre-produced events broadcasted "as live" afterwards, but it you could give us a true live broadcast from AK like you did from Jackson, then Liam, you too would become the GOAT of contest organizing.
- KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!!! NST IS AWESOME!!!
All the best, Dave
There were specially built "enhanced features" in JH, but not smoothly groomed kickers like we saw in a few of the duels this year...
Ha ha yes Dave! Great to hear from you 🙏
I couldn't let this thread go by without throwing in my 2 cents worth. When I was at Quiksilver, Jasper Sanders and I had always dreamed about doing a NST style slopestyle event in Les Arcs, first as part of the Quik Cup (we thought the freeride aspect would level the playing field for the surfers and skaters), then for the Quiksilver Slopestyle Pro, but trying to get even the Quiky big wigs, let alone the crew from Les Arcs onboard turned out to be impossible. Funnily enough, at the same time, skier cross star Enak Gavaggio of Rancho Webshow fame was running the Les Arcs Freeride Ski event that we "sponsored" in exchange for them helping us out with our snowboard event.
Dave! Great comments all around, you've basically answered all your own questions as well, making it easy for me. Appreciate all the constructive feedback from somebody who definitely "gets it" if you know what I mean.