Tom Kay, Cornwall, February 2023. Photo: Mat Arney
For episode 201, I caught up with friend-of-the-pod and Finisterre founder Tom Kay on the occasion of the brand’s 20th anniversary. We discussed running a business with purpose, the lessons Tom has learned over the past two decades, and much more. If you haven’t heard it yet, listen here:
In this week’s Open Thread, open to free and paid subscribers, Tom is going to answer questions about our conversation and his twenty years at the helm of Finisterre.
Finisterre have also offered a brand new Yulex wetsuit as prize for the best question in the comments! Tom will pick a winner once the Thread is finished. (This contest is only open to paid subscribers, as will all future Open Thread contests featuring prizes from my pals at Stance, Db, Patagonia, Danner and Goodrays).
Hi Tom, wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your personal journey to find Finisterre’s purpose as a brand and as a company? Wondering if it’s fully aligned / identical with your own personal purpose?
Thanks! Now, please just think about opening a store in NY :) frigid temps here also.
Just wow. This doesn’t normally happen, right. An engaged community. A CEO who thoughtfully responds to each and everyone. By way of my own gratitude to you all and a thank you to Tom - here’s a playlist assembled over the weekend aptly entitled ‘sea.bathing’ - it’s all springing forward, sun streaming through, late afternoon / early evening, sun down over our seas
Genuinely interested in how any company with an ethical ethos can use China as a place to manufacture their goods. If not for a geopolitical reason but for the ‘consumer miles’ on a product.
Thanks Thom. Being the brand we are with the product we make, we have a global supply chain. Our design ethos has always been about making the best quality product possible, that you will have in your life for as long as possible. With this remit, it means working with best factories and this means some product is made in the UK, some in Portugal, Romania and Turkey, and some in Asia. With specific reference to China, we know that manufacturing there has issues - and ones that we don't take lightly - but also involves a lot of nuance. When we first started manufacturing there, we told our community and have been transparent about the factories we are working with. They are all independently run, produce world-class product and provide vital jobs for their local communities. As a B Corp, we have a responsibility to ensure that the people in our supply chain are treated fairly as well as our environmental impact is kept to a minimum, and we will never waver in our commitment to this. We also work with FWC who are independent 3rd party supply chain auditors. In terms of consumer miles, we ship as much by boat as possible.
What is the best life-lesson that the ocean has taught you, that you can apply to the rest of your life, including business. So when the tough days come and we all know they do come, this is a life-raft for you to hang onto that offers solace and direction.
Julian! Best question so far.....💥 There are many things the sea has taught me, but I think living in the moment and gratitude for what I have consistently stand out. And in terms of resilience that I’ve called upon many times on the journey, it’s to keep on paddling...you will make it out the back!
Feb 28, 2023·edited Feb 28, 2023Liked by Matthew Barr
Hey Tom, really enjoyed the episode – you talked a little bit about values vs business needs, but I wondered, with increased focus and pressure on so many fronts – the environmental impact we all have, more focus on sustainability, less focus on consumption, development in various technologies, perhaps even changes in attitude to work/life balance, and of course cost flutuations – what do you see as the biggest challeges for a organisation like yours over the next 20 years? Do you have to limit ones own goals for growth for the 'greater good'?
Thanks Kevin. It’s a great question and I guess it comes down to what sort business we are going to become. Reconciling growing a brand with all those pressures is something i think about quite a lot. What business model is the one that can become positive impact, how can we use the brand to drive change and have the biggest voice? And it’s not linear, the belief is that we can do it, but it’s also something we’re working on all the time. If we can get better at what we do and drive the change we believe needs to happen then that’s what keeps us going. Hopefully this is evident from the work we have done to date, and it feels as if we are just getting started!
It's certainly clear so far! Let's hope you can set a clear example of others going forward. Wishing you and your team all the very best for the future.
Tom I know you are and have been involved in the RNLI, not just as a supporter but also a member of the crew. What lessons have you learned from that community as well as technically, that you’ve used to guide your leadership at Finisterre as well as how it’s influenced the culture at the company.
Thanks Christian, yes been on the crew in Aggie for 20 years now. Originally as crew and more recently as helm. Super proud of our station and to be part of the crew, also for all the other volunteers around the country. The RNLI is charity like no other in that the volunteer ethos of 200yrs ago still exists today; you can be called out 24/7 365 days a year and are potentially risking your life to save somebody else’s. When we go out on a shout, there 3 of us in the boat, 1 helm, 2 crew. It’s usually pretty intense at the start, sea could be rough, adrenaline is going etc but I always try and take a few breaths before we leave the boathouse get everyone calm and on the same page as to what we’re going out to. And everyone in the boat has something to give, there are 3 pairs of eyes and 3 opinions, although I am ultimately in charge as helm. So I like that in a business context, also a low ego environment. And I always like the new guard coming up and taking over, so a good legacy and place where people feel trusted and can learn.
I've had a few conversations recently (incl with Rebecca Olive & Hugo Tagholm) about how surfers often think they are environmentalists & super in touch with the natural world as they spend so much time in the sea, but in practical terms they often don't really do enough for the planet.
I wondered if you had any thoughts on how to engage more surfers in positive environmental/social action without hectoring them?
Thanks Sam, good to hear from you! Doing ok thanks.
I guess, generally speaking, there is an implied/assumed level of environmentalism with those that surf. On the one hand as a surfer you are in great place to start and become more activist with a strong point of view around the ocean/environment. But it can also lead to complacency if this connection is not used; it’s not enough just to be connected and in the sea; we have probably all been guilty of this and not using this privilege. These things gather momentum when people lead but example and bring people with them on the journey. Show what can be done and we can lead as a community. And if Finisterre can play a role in shining light on this and showing people the door, then this is what we do. And this was really the idea behind our Sea 7 Activist Camp and subsequent Sea 7 Masterclasses. About helping people start on their activist journey; the majority were/are just getting going. But that’s how movements begin! And with regards to social action, it’s why we set up the Finisterre Foundation - explicitly to allow equal access to the ocean for all and break down barriers.
Hi Cliff no problems! We hired a full time wetsuit recycler for 2 years with our #wetsuuitsfromwetsuits project. The aim was to introduce circularity into the wetsuit industry as there was no end of life solution available, apart from down cycling. Wetsuit are incredibly hard to break down for many reasons so we worked with Exeter University to molecularly look at all the components! We actually did make a fully recyclable wetsuit, and have found some really exciting avenues that we are exploring. So to answer your question, we made some progress, but it is still on going. If we crack it, it will be huge...so watch this space!
Hi Matt, thank. Great question and I think you are referring to the relationship between what we do as a business and the health of our waters. It’s something we work hard at and a few things to talk about here. Firstly what we make; this is really about good design; quality product that is fit for purpose (right fabrics etc) and embraces circularity in the design process as much as possible. Helping extend the life of the product in the hands of the customer through repairs and trade ins also forms part of this. This is done within the guiding business B Corp framework, holding us to account and helping us reduce our impact, aiming towards a positive impact business. We also use our brand as a platform to connect people to the sea, either literally or through our content and events. In doing so, it is our hope that people understand the importance of the sea in both personal and planetary health and are of inspired to protect it.
Thanks so much for taking time to answer my question Tom, appreciated. Just a follow on question. It can’t have been easy, what are the main barriers you’ve had to face into specifically around sustainability-related change AND how have you clearly overcome them? Practically, emotionally and financially. Many thanks in advance. Oh and my RNLI Cromer jacket back from in 2017 is still my wet weather / winter goto - so thanks for that wondrous creation
No problems Matt. Sustainability related change is ever present but we have a strong design ethos as outlined above that helps steer us through this landscape. It often also comes from pushing suppliers hard, for example in the early years you could not get recycled polyester in anything less than 1000 yards - which is a lot, especially a small business. But we believed that this was better than using virgin polyester and with a mindset of seeking alternatives to what has gone before, we committed. We then talk to our customers as to why we have done this and things start to change. Or our Bowmont project where we did not make a commercial product for c5 years, but we believed in the project and resurrected a 100% British supply chain. Or working with Econyl who make recycled nylon from partially reclaimed fishing nets. So to answer your question from a product point of view it comes with a clearly defined ethos that you stick to...and this is not easy with added commercial pressures. As for me and maintaining emotional resilience, i spend time with family and get in the sea whenever i can; grateful for this. Glad to gear the jacket is doing you well!
Hi Tom, thanks for your time. My question is around mindset and dealing with failure or doubt. At the moments where you thought the journey was over or physically, financially or mentally you felt that you couldn’t take the brand further what was it that drove you onwards?
Hi Paul, thanks, I could probably talk a long time on this. Actually hard to answer on a thread, as I carry a few battle scars from the journey. These moments have been most often been financial and emotional! Every step has had its peaks and troughs, but the belief in what I felt we can achieve carries you through. A big dose of resilience also and an amazing team alongside - we all take turns in carrying each other, driving forward and keep the mindset needed for the next stage.
Hi Tom, Finisterre has been one of the first surf brands to move away from chloroprene rubber for their wetsuits and probably the first to be completely Neoprene free. Why did you make the switch? How has feedback been on your Yulex suits.
Hi Chris, all our wetsuits are made from Yulex and have been for around 3 years now. As a brand we always look for better alternatives to what has gone before, so when Yulex became available it was an obvious choice for us, in fact our summer wetsuits have only ever been made from Yulex. Feedback has been good; our suits are often cited as some of the warmest out there as well as lasting a long time; two key design criteria....AND NATURAL RUBBER! It’s never a done job though, we are constantly listening to our customer and ambassador feedback to help us improve.
Last one from me, Yulex is obviously the right thing to do. But how do we scale the message about the harm being done by neoprene, so it goes beyond the niche audience. Is it possible to positively challenge the government large producers to subsidise the purchase/subscription of Yulex to make it more accessible to a larger addressable market?
No problems Christian, keep them coming! Great question. The neoprene story is a real opportunity for surfers and the surf industry to lead by example. If we could shine a light on what we can all do together, driving real change from within, then we could use the core message from the Big Sea film to show other industries what can be done.
Morning Tom! On a 20 year journey there will have been many paths you could have gone down with Finisterre and plenty of people who will have offered advice, thoughts or backing along the way. Standing where you are today, what offer are you glad you turned down / well meaning piece of advice are you glad you ignored.
Hi Demi, thanks, yes long journey with many sages along the way! I guess the early years were the hardest; just starting out, no business experience, zero marketing budget but a deep belief that there was a place in the world for Finisterre and we could do things better. A belief that was often challenged usually around the tone of ‘it can’t be done, what do you know’ etc, but bit by bit you build and cling onto your belief. Whenever you start of on a journey, there will always be naysayers!
Morning Tom, how do smaller disruptive clothing brands like Finisterre challenge some of the status quo around textile manufacture and end of life practices, E.G. such as incineration.
Hi Christian, we have always tried to lead by example and where we feel change and conversation needs to happen. This can be in any area and have been really exciting moments on our journey to date. Never underestimate what you can achieve band be as brave as you can. Everyone has a voice!
Feb 28, 2023·edited Feb 28, 2023Liked by Matthew Barr
Hi Tom. What's been the biggest challenge of the last twenty years when it comes to running Finisterre? And what do you think will be the biggest challenge of the next twenty?
Hi Steve, thanks. Many challenges along the journey! As well as the usual start up hurdles, there are the additional ones of growing a brand with strong values, trying to do things differently and challenge what has gone before. But as much this presents challenges it is this mindset that actually guides you - and will continue do so looking forward.
Hi Chris, becoming B Corp certified back in 2018 was big for us. After 15 years of Finisterre - a brand that i founded on a commitment to people, product and environment and people - it was important to obtain external validation of what we were doing, as well as act as a business growth framework for the future. It is something that we are proud of but are constantly working at to get better, as shown but our latest re-cert points increase. It is hard to obtain and retain, but quite rightly so, the questionnaire and assessment are quite complicated. I guess this is why some of the bigger businesses find it hard to commit to?
Hi Tom, wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your personal journey to find Finisterre’s purpose as a brand and as a company? Wondering if it’s fully aligned / identical with your own personal purpose?
Thanks! Now, please just think about opening a store in NY :) frigid temps here also.
Just wow. This doesn’t normally happen, right. An engaged community. A CEO who thoughtfully responds to each and everyone. By way of my own gratitude to you all and a thank you to Tom - here’s a playlist assembled over the weekend aptly entitled ‘sea.bathing’ - it’s all springing forward, sun streaming through, late afternoon / early evening, sun down over our seas
Enjoy and thank you
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7u56UMMbKq9lbNaSpvkk8n?si=DcHGxhPDQdeTyCQ_ludTug&nd=1
Right on Matt. Thanks for the questions and the ace looking playlist
Good to hear thanks Matt. And thanks for playlist, on train now so will get it on. Catch up sometime, Best
Genuinely interested in how any company with an ethical ethos can use China as a place to manufacture their goods. If not for a geopolitical reason but for the ‘consumer miles’ on a product.
I ask this out of ignorance to global markets.
Thanks Thom. Being the brand we are with the product we make, we have a global supply chain. Our design ethos has always been about making the best quality product possible, that you will have in your life for as long as possible. With this remit, it means working with best factories and this means some product is made in the UK, some in Portugal, Romania and Turkey, and some in Asia. With specific reference to China, we know that manufacturing there has issues - and ones that we don't take lightly - but also involves a lot of nuance. When we first started manufacturing there, we told our community and have been transparent about the factories we are working with. They are all independently run, produce world-class product and provide vital jobs for their local communities. As a B Corp, we have a responsibility to ensure that the people in our supply chain are treated fairly as well as our environmental impact is kept to a minimum, and we will never waver in our commitment to this. We also work with FWC who are independent 3rd party supply chain auditors. In terms of consumer miles, we ship as much by boat as possible.
Thank you Tom.
What is the best life-lesson that the ocean has taught you, that you can apply to the rest of your life, including business. So when the tough days come and we all know they do come, this is a life-raft for you to hang onto that offers solace and direction.
Julian! Best question so far.....💥 There are many things the sea has taught me, but I think living in the moment and gratitude for what I have consistently stand out. And in terms of resilience that I’ve called upon many times on the journey, it’s to keep on paddling...you will make it out the back!
Hey Tom, really enjoyed the episode – you talked a little bit about values vs business needs, but I wondered, with increased focus and pressure on so many fronts – the environmental impact we all have, more focus on sustainability, less focus on consumption, development in various technologies, perhaps even changes in attitude to work/life balance, and of course cost flutuations – what do you see as the biggest challeges for a organisation like yours over the next 20 years? Do you have to limit ones own goals for growth for the 'greater good'?
Thanks Kevin. It’s a great question and I guess it comes down to what sort business we are going to become. Reconciling growing a brand with all those pressures is something i think about quite a lot. What business model is the one that can become positive impact, how can we use the brand to drive change and have the biggest voice? And it’s not linear, the belief is that we can do it, but it’s also something we’re working on all the time. If we can get better at what we do and drive the change we believe needs to happen then that’s what keeps us going. Hopefully this is evident from the work we have done to date, and it feels as if we are just getting started!
It's certainly clear so far! Let's hope you can set a clear example of others going forward. Wishing you and your team all the very best for the future.
Thanks Kevin
Tom I know you are and have been involved in the RNLI, not just as a supporter but also a member of the crew. What lessons have you learned from that community as well as technically, that you’ve used to guide your leadership at Finisterre as well as how it’s influenced the culture at the company.
Thanks Christian, yes been on the crew in Aggie for 20 years now. Originally as crew and more recently as helm. Super proud of our station and to be part of the crew, also for all the other volunteers around the country. The RNLI is charity like no other in that the volunteer ethos of 200yrs ago still exists today; you can be called out 24/7 365 days a year and are potentially risking your life to save somebody else’s. When we go out on a shout, there 3 of us in the boat, 1 helm, 2 crew. It’s usually pretty intense at the start, sea could be rough, adrenaline is going etc but I always try and take a few breaths before we leave the boathouse get everyone calm and on the same page as to what we’re going out to. And everyone in the boat has something to give, there are 3 pairs of eyes and 3 opinions, although I am ultimately in charge as helm. So I like that in a business context, also a low ego environment. And I always like the new guard coming up and taking over, so a good legacy and place where people feel trusted and can learn.
Hey Tom, hope you're well.
I've had a few conversations recently (incl with Rebecca Olive & Hugo Tagholm) about how surfers often think they are environmentalists & super in touch with the natural world as they spend so much time in the sea, but in practical terms they often don't really do enough for the planet.
I wondered if you had any thoughts on how to engage more surfers in positive environmental/social action without hectoring them?
Thanks, Sam
Thanks Sam, good to hear from you! Doing ok thanks.
I guess, generally speaking, there is an implied/assumed level of environmentalism with those that surf. On the one hand as a surfer you are in great place to start and become more activist with a strong point of view around the ocean/environment. But it can also lead to complacency if this connection is not used; it’s not enough just to be connected and in the sea; we have probably all been guilty of this and not using this privilege. These things gather momentum when people lead but example and bring people with them on the journey. Show what can be done and we can lead as a community. And if Finisterre can play a role in shining light on this and showing people the door, then this is what we do. And this was really the idea behind our Sea 7 Activist Camp and subsequent Sea 7 Masterclasses. About helping people start on their activist journey; the majority were/are just getting going. But that’s how movements begin! And with regards to social action, it’s why we set up the Finisterre Foundation - explicitly to allow equal access to the ocean for all and break down barriers.
Hope to see catch up soon
Thanks Tom, good answer & yep Finisterre's Sea 7 work and Foundation definitely seem like solid steps in the right direction.
Good morning Tom,
I haven’t listened to the recent conversation with Matt, so apologies if you covered this.
A couple of years ago you were looking to employ someone who would work on a solution to recycle neoprene/wetsuits.
Are there any updates? How did you get on?
Hi Cliff no problems! We hired a full time wetsuit recycler for 2 years with our #wetsuuitsfromwetsuits project. The aim was to introduce circularity into the wetsuit industry as there was no end of life solution available, apart from down cycling. Wetsuit are incredibly hard to break down for many reasons so we worked with Exeter University to molecularly look at all the components! We actually did make a fully recyclable wetsuit, and have found some really exciting avenues that we are exploring. So to answer your question, we made some progress, but it is still on going. If we crack it, it will be huge...so watch this space!
Thank you for taking the time to reply Tom. I’ll be watching with everything crossed!!
Good morning. Tom. How do you steer your ship to ensure that the health of our waters, does not affect the wealth of your business?
Hi Matt, thank. Great question and I think you are referring to the relationship between what we do as a business and the health of our waters. It’s something we work hard at and a few things to talk about here. Firstly what we make; this is really about good design; quality product that is fit for purpose (right fabrics etc) and embraces circularity in the design process as much as possible. Helping extend the life of the product in the hands of the customer through repairs and trade ins also forms part of this. This is done within the guiding business B Corp framework, holding us to account and helping us reduce our impact, aiming towards a positive impact business. We also use our brand as a platform to connect people to the sea, either literally or through our content and events. In doing so, it is our hope that people understand the importance of the sea in both personal and planetary health and are of inspired to protect it.
Thanks so much for taking time to answer my question Tom, appreciated. Just a follow on question. It can’t have been easy, what are the main barriers you’ve had to face into specifically around sustainability-related change AND how have you clearly overcome them? Practically, emotionally and financially. Many thanks in advance. Oh and my RNLI Cromer jacket back from in 2017 is still my wet weather / winter goto - so thanks for that wondrous creation
No problems Matt. Sustainability related change is ever present but we have a strong design ethos as outlined above that helps steer us through this landscape. It often also comes from pushing suppliers hard, for example in the early years you could not get recycled polyester in anything less than 1000 yards - which is a lot, especially a small business. But we believed that this was better than using virgin polyester and with a mindset of seeking alternatives to what has gone before, we committed. We then talk to our customers as to why we have done this and things start to change. Or our Bowmont project where we did not make a commercial product for c5 years, but we believed in the project and resurrected a 100% British supply chain. Or working with Econyl who make recycled nylon from partially reclaimed fishing nets. So to answer your question from a product point of view it comes with a clearly defined ethos that you stick to...and this is not easy with added commercial pressures. As for me and maintaining emotional resilience, i spend time with family and get in the sea whenever i can; grateful for this. Glad to gear the jacket is doing you well!
Tom. Thanks again, truly grateful
Hi Tom, thanks for your time. My question is around mindset and dealing with failure or doubt. At the moments where you thought the journey was over or physically, financially or mentally you felt that you couldn’t take the brand further what was it that drove you onwards?
Hi Paul, thanks, I could probably talk a long time on this. Actually hard to answer on a thread, as I carry a few battle scars from the journey. These moments have been most often been financial and emotional! Every step has had its peaks and troughs, but the belief in what I felt we can achieve carries you through. A big dose of resilience also and an amazing team alongside - we all take turns in carrying each other, driving forward and keep the mindset needed for the next stage.
Thanks Tom, really appreciate you taking the time! Looking forward to seeing the brand continue to grow and make an impact!
Hi Tom, Finisterre has been one of the first surf brands to move away from chloroprene rubber for their wetsuits and probably the first to be completely Neoprene free. Why did you make the switch? How has feedback been on your Yulex suits.
Hi Chris, all our wetsuits are made from Yulex and have been for around 3 years now. As a brand we always look for better alternatives to what has gone before, so when Yulex became available it was an obvious choice for us, in fact our summer wetsuits have only ever been made from Yulex. Feedback has been good; our suits are often cited as some of the warmest out there as well as lasting a long time; two key design criteria....AND NATURAL RUBBER! It’s never a done job though, we are constantly listening to our customer and ambassador feedback to help us improve.
Last one from me, Yulex is obviously the right thing to do. But how do we scale the message about the harm being done by neoprene, so it goes beyond the niche audience. Is it possible to positively challenge the government large producers to subsidise the purchase/subscription of Yulex to make it more accessible to a larger addressable market?
No problems Christian, keep them coming! Great question. The neoprene story is a real opportunity for surfers and the surf industry to lead by example. If we could shine a light on what we can all do together, driving real change from within, then we could use the core message from the Big Sea film to show other industries what can be done.
Morning Tom! On a 20 year journey there will have been many paths you could have gone down with Finisterre and plenty of people who will have offered advice, thoughts or backing along the way. Standing where you are today, what offer are you glad you turned down / well meaning piece of advice are you glad you ignored.
Hi Demi, thanks, yes long journey with many sages along the way! I guess the early years were the hardest; just starting out, no business experience, zero marketing budget but a deep belief that there was a place in the world for Finisterre and we could do things better. A belief that was often challenged usually around the tone of ‘it can’t be done, what do you know’ etc, but bit by bit you build and cling onto your belief. Whenever you start of on a journey, there will always be naysayers!
Morning Tom, how do smaller disruptive clothing brands like Finisterre challenge some of the status quo around textile manufacture and end of life practices, E.G. such as incineration.
Hi Christian, we have always tried to lead by example and where we feel change and conversation needs to happen. This can be in any area and have been really exciting moments on our journey to date. Never underestimate what you can achieve band be as brave as you can. Everyone has a voice!
Hi Tom. What's been the biggest challenge of the last twenty years when it comes to running Finisterre? And what do you think will be the biggest challenge of the next twenty?
Hi Steve, thanks. Many challenges along the journey! As well as the usual start up hurdles, there are the additional ones of growing a brand with strong values, trying to do things differently and challenge what has gone before. But as much this presents challenges it is this mindset that actually guides you - and will continue do so looking forward.
Hi Chris, becoming B Corp certified back in 2018 was big for us. After 15 years of Finisterre - a brand that i founded on a commitment to people, product and environment and people - it was important to obtain external validation of what we were doing, as well as act as a business growth framework for the future. It is something that we are proud of but are constantly working at to get better, as shown but our latest re-cert points increase. It is hard to obtain and retain, but quite rightly so, the questionnaire and assessment are quite complicated. I guess this is why some of the bigger businesses find it hard to commit to?