Despite only being released at the end of November, my Type 2 conversation with Lewis Arnold and Chris Nelson about their new documentary film The Big Sea, which explores the harmful impact of neoprene on local communities, soon became one of my top 5 most-listened to episodes of 2022. If you haven’t heard it yet, listen here:
And listeners had questions. LOTS of questions. So many that I’ve invited Chris and Lewis to host an Open Thread, open to both free and paid subscribers, in which they explore the issues and answer all the questions elicited by their film and our conversation.
Huge thanks to my friends at Finisterre, who have offered a brand new Yulex wetsuit as a prize for the best question in the comments! Chris and Lewis will pick a winner once the Thread is finished. (This contest is open to both free and paid subscribers, although future Open Thread contests featuring prizes from my pals at Stance, Db, Patagonia, Danner, Goodrays and more will only be open to paid subscribers).
Nice one to everybody who took part in this week’s Open Thread! The Thread is now locked, but if you want to help make The Big Sea a reality, they’re about to launch a kickstarter to help with the post production costs - grading, sound, design, etc. Sign up for news about the project and kickstarter here: https://mailchi.mp/5e63b15b3f62/support-the-film-campaign
Keen to hear more on your thoughts about the surf media, and their unwillingness to publish articles on your story.
Having helped out Surfers Against Sewage for years I was always grateful for the support we received from the British surf media, but I guess we didn’t pay for the advertising space and we were necessarily at odds with the brands that were.
I was gutted to hear that they had blanked you.
Was their reaction what you expected, and can you understand their decision?
Morning Cliff, good question. I know this has been pitched many times and turned down, despite how prescient the topic is. I suspect there has been no overt threat from advertisers, but perhaps a desire from editorial staff not to upset brands. I know there are now publications who are hopefully going to run with the story so perhaps this will change?
As we roll out screenings our aim is to work with mainstream media who are more open to the story. The truth about Cancer Alley is shocking and if you Google it there has been a lot of coverage for example The Guardian did a year long series of reports. No one so far tied the problems to the products. Neoprene is widely used not just in surfing so if we can get the surf industry to change, hopefully the leisure industry will change and we can all build momentum.
The environmental racism angle is truly shocking and quite blatant. The US legal system is so mired in politics that I have little hope that things will change in the short term. I think that it is consumers and brands that can make the difference. Unfortunately the way the US operates it is down to the power of the dollar. Any right minded person would have wanted a company like Denka closed down when the pollution issues came to light. That surf brands are doing business with them, rewarding them by putting money in their pockets, is a scandal. As companies are made aware of where their chloroprene rubber comes from many will change - but how bad would it be if surf brands were the last to change?
How is this ok. At what point and what needs to happen for humans to change the way we think about ethically made wetsuits.
This coverage is a starting point, what needs to happen now. What can we all do besides buy ethically when the problem seems bigger than just purchasing a wetsuit or anything neoprene related.
Is it going to take a huge surfing brand to make a stand and accept responsibility for there actions and elite surfers to also make a stand for their sponsors immoral actions.
Hi Owen, you are right. There are many complex issues around Cancer Alley involving race, poverty, politics and naked capitalism. But by highlighting this issue and pressuring brands to switch to natural rubber we begin a process of moving away from this harmful petrochemical and the the next users of Neoprene come under pressure. Also, surf brands are in effect gaslighting us with the greenwashing they put out about their wetsuits. If they are made from Neoprene they are made from horrendous chemicals.
It’s amazing that this is finally getting media coverage. I can’t quite believe it’s been the elephant in the room for so long it’s like DuPont and Teflon all over again 🤬 so sad like it’s allowed to happen to the extent humans and the environment are seriously affected.
Surfing I guess is a small cog in the neoprene production.
I mean it’s even used to keep your stubby cool in Australia. How messed up is that !!!
Thanks Owen, yes, surfing is a small cog comparatively - but it's still a multi-billion dollar industry. Many are also part of corporate structure with other leisure brands that utilise Chloroprene Rubber in their products. If we can get surf brands to change, then hopefully the leisure brands will follow. And maybe we can get people to think about the other products they purchase. You'd be amazed how many people get in touch and say things like 'I never realised but my cycling gloves have Neoprene in them' or 'my wellies have Neoprene in them.'
Also interested in how everyone feels about the pricing of natural rubber suits.
The larger brand suits are very expensive still. Possibly too expensive for the average summer beach user to afford, especially if buying for the whole family.
Given that suits cost much the same to make for natural rubber and neoprene, should brands be making more affordable suits? I know that comes with economy of scale, but currently most “Yulex” suits must be well over £200.
A couple of good points here Cliff. Firstly wetsuits shouldn't be too cheap as we have become to view them as almost one season disposable items. But also Yulex suits should be cheaper as the raw materials are cheaper than Chloroprene Rubber. Prices will come down very quickly due to a combination of scalability and consumer press. BTW the brands using Yulex are not keeping the price of Yulex suits high. I think they would like to see prices come down also.
There’s a perception that Yulex suits don’t perform as well as neoprene, although you make the point many athletes are wearing Yulex. How can the industry change this perception?
I think the surf media should run a proper review on wetsuits. They always do the summer and winter wetsuit guide but they typically cut and paste from the brands advertising blurb.
The older Yulex suits were pretty stiff to be fair, but the newer ones are fantastic.
I believe the price point is the real barrier to larger sales of Yulex suits.
There's acknowledgment that early iterations of the Yulex suits weren't perhaps great and maybe that has effected peoples views. I wear a Yulex suit and for me it's as good as the Neoprene suits I always used to wear. I'm sure Lewis will agree. As a surf photographer in places like Scotland and the Northeast - that's one of the most demanding environments for a suits. But I think you hit the nail on the head Jojo with the word 'perceptions'. Also the fact that many 'athletes' on the world tour have been wearing Yulex but we haven't been told I think also has an effect. I think there's an acknowledgement from many brands now that Yulex is as good as Chloroprene Rubber.
Hi Chris, thanks for the question. We certainly hope so. Surfing prides itself on being ethical and 'green', using 'sustainability' to help sell products - but nearly all brands are using Chloroprene Rubber in the suits. Reading through the green promises and sustainable pledges the brands make you have to wonder how they think this is sustainable. Hopefully in a few years we'll all look back and wonder why it took so long for brands to open up and level with us and make the change - and hopefully Neoprene suits will be looked upon in the same way as sea life centres.
I'm curious about the scalability of Yulex as a replacement for neoprene. Given it's a plantation product, demand growth would imply land issues in tropical areas. Do you worry that we're potentially replacing one set of problems with another?
Hi Paul, that's a super important question. Yulex is FSC certified so that the natural rubber that goes into wetsuits comes from majority small holders working in a sustainable way. New capacity has to be brought online in a way that complies with this so no clear cut etc. Having spoken at length with Jeff and Liz at Yulex we know that there is enough capacity currently for all the brands to switch, and they are working to bring more online in a sustainable way. BTW - we have no vested interest in Yulex - the film is completely independent.
I also know that they are keen to move towards a model that encourages land owners to operate not just sustainably but regeneratively so encouraging biodiversity within small holdings. I think you're right to flag this up as this was one of our first questions. Obviously when you see the miles of palm oil monoculture in Indonesia or Malaysia it's quite shocking - so it was reassuring to know that this is not the case with Yulex rubber.
Thanks for the replies Chris. I also wonder if you came across any other neoprene alternatives during the making of the film, any other startups working in this space?
That's super important also. Innovation will definitely drive better products. Yulex will become better than the best Neoprene available today and I know there are small brands looking at other alternatives. I think as long as we keep the products environmentally responsible that's a great thing.
Has anyone from any of the big wetsuit brands reached out with messages of support ‘off the record’, or has it been radio silence?
As creatives in the surf game it’s hard enough as it to make a crust. Did you worry that by going public with this it’ll make it harder to get budgets for future projects?
Hey Mark, thanks for the question. Part of our process in making the film has been to reach out to all the major wetsuit brands with a list of questions and to give them a right to reply. Some have blanked us, some have sent through some very ambiguous statements highlighting their many 'green credentials' such as thread made ocean plastics. I'll be honest, I expected more to hold their hands up and say 'this is terrible, we need to change.' I've been disappointed with the responses. I hoped that even if their consciences weren't impacted, they might view this as a commercial opportunity. A couple of brands have been very complimentary about Yulex and said they'd like to switch. You hear from one very senior player in the film. I still have hope that a brand will be the first to make the switch and then others will follow. We'll see.
Re being freelancers in the surf world, Lewis and I did laugh about this when we started, saying we'll probably never work in the industry again. The thing is, once you know about this, you can't un-know it. And sitting down with people in Reserve and hearing their stories is life changing. Is this a popular story - no, is it one we had to tell - yes.
Hey, the attitude of the bigger brands so far is 'yeah its bad but the bean counters won't let us change' a cop-out really. I think change is coming but imho only because they feel they have to, kind of a token gesture maybe? The official right to replies so far have been disappointing so far.
I have not done much work with these brands before and when I have, it has been a struggle to get paid. Definitely after The Big Sea it would be hypocritical in the extreme for me to work with any brand not using natural rubber. This may lead to less work but if thats what it takes, we'll just have to deal with that.
My worry is that the 'Limestone' narrative of being more 'sustainable' and 'green' seems to be swallowed now, making it appear that the change that was needed to be made has been, when in fact its basically replacing like for like!
-What would you like to see from wetsuit brands to achieve transparency on the materials they use?
It would be a big step forward if we knew what is in a wetsuit and could make an informed choice but at the moment, I don't think the brands using neoprene will be transparent, it would be damning and hit them hard. eg 70-80% of this product is from cancer alley etc
I feel they use language and marketing to avoid transparency and tinker with minor aspects of their products like thread and lining to distract from the truth.
That's a great point Stephen. There is no Limestone in so called Limestone Neoprene. It is chemically exactly the same as petrochemical derived chloroprene rubber. If anything it is worse as the limestone is quarried using huge diesel machinery, then melted in huge electric furnace at two thousand degrees, to form the chloroprene. Also, the so called called 'limestone Neoprene' comes from Denka. The wording around these suits as being green and sustainable is disingenuous greenwashing. Brands need to stop this immediately.
Thanks for making the film! Very excited to see it!
My journey looking into a more sustainable wetsuit option on the market was always environment focused. Your work has opened my eyes to real people being effected. Hopefully this will be the catalyst for change and allow the net to be cast farther, even to some 'anti-tree hugger' types.
Thanks Stephen, if your new wetsuit is as good as, or better than your old Neoprene suit, be sure to tell your friends so we can dispel the myth that natural rubber isn't as good as chloroprene rubber.
Looking to be a part of the future too - My research into a suit I wanted to buy led me to making my own one! - Bringing to market this year and aim to be a branded voice of transparency of what materials are available and should be used!
I was same as you Stephen. My choice of suit was 100% environmentally driven. I had no idea about Cancer Alley and how devastatingly harmful the process was to the workers there.
How could anyone argue for the continued production of neoprene knowing these truths?
Hi Cliff, the workers might be an issue but the main focus of the issues around Cancer Alley is the local population. It's shocking too see that there is a school next to the Denka fence line.
Matt thanks for sharing your great platform for discussing all the details on this tragic story. *disclaimer I am a surfer tied to the Surf Industry and a wetsuit geek. How do we crack the greenwash ‘limestone’ as eco solution that the brands are using? They have brainwashed everyone on limestone as being eco and performance enhancing and have not linked Limestone suits to its production, nor its true environmental impact. x
Hi Gabe, the conversation around Limestone Neoprene is problematic. For me it is simple gaslighting of the consumer. The terms 'Eco-friendly' and 'Sustainable' are used by many brands, one claiming it's "more sustainable, better for the environment and better for athletes". which is patently not true. I think we all need to be calling out brands that use this language.
We have researched Limestone and will be trying to get the simple truth out as part of the campaign alongside the film, maybe an accompanying short?
We are trying to deal with Limestone in the Big Sea but it does not have the overtly racist aspect as it is made in Japan by Denka and we don't now the problems caused over there.
Environmentally, limestone neoprene is worse than petrochemical neoprene, I believe companies saying otherwise are lying and need to be called out
Thanks Chris and Lewis for making this film off your own sweat and tears and drawing everyone's attention to this.
The scary part (one of many) is the people working in these plants know they are risking their health, but it sounds as though they don't have the resources or the opportunity to move / work elsewhere. From the conversations you've had, what alternative options would they have if the factories were eventually shut down? Do you think there will ever be compensation or support from the wetsuit industry for the communities?
Yeah I think the people actually working in this Denka plant know the risks, there are signs up inside saying 'Beware Cancer risk' they use PPE and the vast majority are contractors from elsewhere who have decided to take the paycheck.
Denka is being pressured to clean up so it may become less profitable but its a long way from closing down. If jobs are lost? there are 200 or so other petrochemical plants on Cancer Alley so there is other work in plants that are not as damaging.
My concern is for the local residents who are being poisoned and have no option to move away, hopefully they can pursue compensation from Denka in the future?
Hi Matt, thanks for your question. As Lewis says, the local residents are our main concern. They have had no say in the opening of the plant or the levels of pollution. There is land around the Denka plant that could be utilised for other industries. The crazy situation is that a solar farm tried to open nearby providing green energy and jobs - but was blocked by local politicians. The whole system is currently so tilted towards the petrochemical industry.
Does this not reflect the wider issue we have with the whole topic of sustainability. It’s to big at the consumer level E.G, “it’s over there so not my problem”. “How can I make a difference”. At the industry level, pricing won’t change unless it happens at scale, so we need more manufacturers to use their impact. And I think this is, the “hold the mirror up” moment, surfing has issues, and the industry at all levels need to hold its hands ups. Blank cheques against nature have been written for to long. So my question, how can this story be used to develop a platform for cultural and industry change? People will need direction, so what’s the next step? How do we make this digestible, so that smaller change impacts scale.
Hi Christian, Denka are determined to protect their profits with no regard the damage caused to the environment and people thought their operation.
We hope the visibility of surfing can be used to start change, show there are real alternatives to polluting petrochemicals, perhaps surfing can take a lead? Thats a big ask however as for now, the majority of the surf industry is complicit in the distress caused by chloroprene production, they all know neoprene is bad, but don't really want to dig into it and aren't inclined to make an change if it impacts profit
Hey guys, thanks for making this film, I'm looking forward to seeing it.
My question is about production and switching to Yulex (or another alternative if there is one).
In my experience things have to be made easy to convince people to change their choices.
If a brand wanted to switch, would it be an easy enough to manage in terms of the production and costs linked to production? Is there enough manufacturing capacity and materials for the mainstream brands to switch for example? If we can show them the path to switching is possible - easy even - than I think there is real hope that the bigger brands might change.
As far as I know Patagonia did a lot (all?) of the development of Yulex and made the information freely available so others could follow so it feels like there is hope there.
What are your thoughts on this and have you looked into it?
One thing I think would be a great to see is a breakdown of the costs of production for neoprene vs Yulex wetsuits and other products. I think if people can see there's little or no difference in the cost and quality then there's way brands can use that as an argument. Do you think Patagonia or Finisterre would be willing to show these figures to help convince brands to switch?
Super interesting hearing you talk about it on the podcast. Great to hear really important topics being covered, so rare in surfing!
Let me know if I can help in any way with finishing and spreading the word of course!
Hi Owen, At the moment the only option for a top notch wetsuit is Yulex, the big brands could have invested in that (or something else?) from the start but they rejected it as r&d costs, hence the association between Yulex and Patagonia
Any brand could have gone to ISPO in Munich in December and ordered Yulex, some actually did and will be introducing natural rubber into their ranges, whether that is a token gesture or a real shift remains to be seen
Shieco makes all the main wetsuits other than Rip Curl, (even Patagonia) and this monopoly has enabled prices to be distorted to retard the uptake of Yulex. I was amazed to find out that Natural rubber is a cheaper raw material than chloroprene rubber.
Yulex are setting up alternative manufacturing and expanding capacity to get around this. Big mainstream sportswear brands are going full Yulex, the capacity is now there
Patagonia etc wetsuits are perceived as expensive but they are top of the range so actually comparable price wise to the best on offer from Quik, Rip Curl etc I have had an old Yulex which is now wrecked but only after 5 yrs in the North Sea, they can last if u look after them, I cant say the same about rip curl, excel, billabong, that I have had.
I think the corporate structure of most big brands is a problem, the shareholders only care about profit and their dividends, the actual 'surfer' staff are stymied and inertia is the result.
Just looking through the Denka website. Unbelievably in their vision under core values it reads “we will respect diversity and create a safe and secure environment “
this was a powerful one. the podcast alone made me want to both throw up in my mouth as well as as recycle my neoprene rubber and seriously evaluate my BS environmental stance.
as someone who has tested and worn patagonia suits off and on since their inception, yulex is a game changer. also the repair service that brands like patagonia and finisterre provided is critical to closing the loop. and hats off to other brands like Seaa and Billabong for embracing yulex in this "open source model."
regardless of surf media or hype the biggest challenges to adoption i see are:
1) even if you want to be in and are educated to value, the wetsuit fit changes each year seemingly (patagonia looking at you) so if you cannot go to a local retailer or corporate store, you are left guessing your size or ordering multiple sizes and returning the ones that do not fit (that environmental impact on shipping alone is significant).
2) the yulex rubber is said to perform and flex similar to "regular" rubber yet the suits I have worn and tested over the years always is less flexible and heavier. if there is a version that truly performs at the same level as the "high end" rubber currently available, those yulex suits should be released into the marketplace. as the only way to change stubborn surfers and their behaviors is to start with the influential or those where money is not the concern, and performance is the priority.
3) price and distribution are a concern to get to the mass market but surf is still a pyramid model where everyone is influenced (even the beginner) less by price and more by performance and pros. the only exception I can see is SUP and wave storms.
Hi hoon, I didn't know about the size thing and shipping is always an issue but we have been told the top pros wear Yulex in competition, J-Bay, Bells etc I was amazed, why don we know? why didn't they market on that?
Problem is, if they promote how good Yulex is now, who will buy the 98 % of their range that is not Yulex?
yup which is why I think it needs to get out to the right "influencers" or "ambassadors" if they will not push the pros' angle. I mean at the end of the day it's cool to see people riding Kelly's boards (as an example) but expoxys unfortunately don't work well here in stiff offshore winds at our local breaks hence why most are still on PU boards. similar yet different analogy of the same problem (eg PU's toxic nature)
Hi Hoon, thanks for your question. There are many preconceptions about Yulex and we don't use the film to tell people how good Yulex is - it is actually one of the biggest 'main' brands that does this. They themselves admit "Yulex is now as good as, if not better than Neoprene". And this is with development spearheaded by a few small pioneers. I think once the bigger brands start pushing in this direction we will soon have wetsuits cheaper, more environmental, longer lasting and better performing. Speaking personally I do have a Yulex wetsuit that is excellent, good stretch and fits well. Sizing is different, but over the years I have found different brands suits can be different sizes.
One way forward might be to create a certification mark for the Yulex rubber suits which clearly states that no human harmful emissions were generated in the making of this product. The yulex product should then make a campaign out of this using some top young surfers who want to associated with non neoprene products.
Hi James, one of the reasons behind the film was to offer people the facts about wetsuit production, so that everyone can then make an informed choice. This is something we feel strongly has been denied to us so far. We don't have an agenda to push Yulex - it's simply that it happens to be very good alternative. I think Lewis and I both feel that we have been complicit in what is happening in Louisiana because we have been buying products linked to Cancer Alley. If we had been informed and given that choice we would wouldn't have. I think it's time everyone cut out the greenwashing and was straight with the consumer.
Hi James - Many thanks. I believe we emailed yesterday but will do so again as I know sometimes things get caught in spam filters. Look to forward to talking more.
after wearing yulex from patagonia and finn, it is heavier and less flexible. I still use it as it is important to me. but I notice it esp after my shoulder injuries - getting in and out of the suit as well as paddling.
if there was a yulex suit that performed at the same flexibility as say e4 or e5 or others, would be a game changer.
people also tout the Japanese yamamoto. I don't see it as warmer but it is more flexible than what we currently have available to consumers.
I think the consensus in the industry is natural rubber will pretty much be on a par performance wise with Neoprene very soon, if it isn’t there already. Ultimately Yamamoto Neoprene is still made with chloroprene chips sourced from Denka.
Thanks for that Jonathan, stoked, yeah the car industry ethos was a surprise to me
I don't know enough about boards other than its a similar paradox, the majority of production has not changed for such a long time, I will explore
There are more coming out all the time but I know Finisterre and Patagonia are fully all Yulex. If u buy a Billabong Yulex, u get natural rubber but are supporting a company who still profits from chloroprene
right that was a big one that you guys brought up! the yamamoto perception that it is not the same factory as the others. that misnomer is huge right now. appreciate everything you guys are doing.
I listened to this podcast and just found myself glad that I was in surgery so I would t even consider getting in the ocean! The thought of putting a neoprene wetsuit on made me feel sick! Actually nauseous. I saw my dad, I saw family, I saw so many black and brown people that are dispensable and irrelevant. It made my heart hurt! As a surf club owner who works with diverse communities and refugees we get donated suits frequently which is incredible and we will continue to pass those on - but I can’t bear the thought of buying a wetsuit for myself, my daughters or any girls and women we surf with without a knot in my stomach.
I appreciate this is not a constructive or a question or a anything other than emotional but it needs to be emotional and people need to be affected by it to take action. The cost is a barrier yes, but I would rather sit and save for an extra paycheck than have another life on my conscience.
Thanks so much for bringing this to a wider audience
Hi Yvette, thanks for your comments. The history of racism in this region is so shocking and it’s no coincidence that the plant was built there. The local activists are incredibly eloquent and active and it makes my blood boil that this story has not surfaced in the surf community until now. As you say, this pollution impacts on a multigenerational level from grandparents to young children at school. Hopefully surfers can lead the change through pressure on brands - either individually or together.
How can the plant workers for Denka directly benefit from wetsuit brands switching to Yulex (or other equivalent)? Is there potential for concerned consumers to create further misery for this group of people?
I’m looking forward to seeing the documentary. I’m grateful for filmmakers like you, who are committed to presenting us with uncomfortable truths. There is so much greenwashing in surfing and as good as the industry and culture has always been at ignoring it, I think (and hope) it’ll be increasingly hard to do so. Am I too utopian? Do you think large scale change can be achieved by the surf industry and its customers or ultimately will a greater (legislative) intervention be needed? ✊🏻
Hi Ben, that’s a good point, I think we all need to start calling out the large scale greenwashing that is prevalent in the surf industry. What does sustainable mean in relation to a Neoprene wetsuit yet you read it all the time.
I’ve got two questions for you which I hope don’t come across as rude or dismissive – they’re absolutely not intended to be, but they were hard to word. The discussion of the toxicity of chloroprene is a really important issue and helps highlight the complexity of transitioning to more sustainable products is because so many actors are involved from consumers to producers to media to communities to ecologies.
There is a lot of shock and frustration from listeners and commenters that surf media haven’t taken up this story – from listeners and from you guys. For any of us who’ve worked on activism on multiple, intersecting issues in surfing for a long time, I imagine we felt much less shock (although equal frustration). In a way, it feels like your storytelling and the emotions you centre in your discussions, are establishing a way for lots of men to connect with multiple issues in a way many of them have avoided. (I hope the bigger point I’m trying to make is clear in that sentence, which is doing so much dancing around the words I want to use.) So I’m wondering what impact that’s had on how you guys think about all the other issues that surf media have avoided publishing on, how it makes you reflect on what else has been brushed aside, and how you think your experience will change your participation in activism more broadly.
My second question is about the effects of stopping Denka’s production on the financial wellbeing of the community who have relied on them. (And you might have talked about this in your discussion, but I didn’t re-listen before writing my question, sorry!). I have no doubt it will be hugely important on the community’s health for production of neoprene to stop. This is not contestable. But while most of the questions here about the sustainable production and costs of Yulex, I wonder if Denka is a big employer in the community and what impact their closure would have when the production of neoprene folds? We can feel better about our transition as consumers but will that have financial implications on the community? Who carries the financial burden of change is part of environmental racism too.
Thanks for your work on the film and your energy on continuing to engage with questions.
Hi Rebecca, thanks for your questions. There are so many issues covering poverty, race and equality that impact the local community that it’s shocking. We haven’t shied away from the fact that the surf industry is overwhelmingly white, middle class and male - a massive contrast with the community in Reserve. I think there will be elements of the surf media that will run with this story and others that will ignore it, but all we can do is our best to inform people of what is happening. Hopefully it starts a wider conversation about issues that arise. Re your second point, talking to the local community they told us very few people who live close to the plant work there. They would like to have either new industry, or traditional industry that doesn’t create toxic pollution.
There is another important point which is why Denka has been spending huge sums of money fighting limits on emissions rather than spending that money on technology to reduce their emissions. This to me demonstrates the type of company surf brands are ultimately doing business with.
Hi Rebecca, Chris has pretty much said it but we found a lot of established surfing (media and industry) to be be quite happy with the status quo. I've been asked why I want to get this this story out? why not just leaves things be and not cause any hassle? This has come from the white, male, middle class and involved in surfing for a long time and happy with the was surfing is/was. The surfing demographic has obviously changed and continues to do, maybe its time for a shakeup to reflect this?
Denka won't release figures as they use their supposed benefit to the local economy to justify themselves but I've been told the only locals who work there are security guards.
Thanks to both of you for these thoughtful answers. I guess my first question is really asking about the impact (beyond the issue in the film) of all this on you both in terms of becoming an activist and how that will play out from here on. How has experiencing the challenges of getting these issues heard challenged you or caused you to reflect on activism in various forms of surf media, and the politics of that? Has it made you think about the activism of others on different issues that you might not previously have paid as much attention to? Masculinity weaves through that, I think... Anyway, it's a tough question, I know, and maybe a bit much for now. But I’m super interested to hear your thoughts one day when you’ve had time and space to reflect.
Yes, some great points raised there and as you say it's a very complex issue. I guess both Lewis and I have been very conscious about the film not being about us and more being about giving a platform to the local community so they can speak to the wider surfing world about their lived experiences. We're very aware that as white, middle class males we are starting from a position of privilege.
On a personal level I'd like to think that I've always been an activist - but then I'm sure everyone would. I have always had strong views on issues around race and gender in surfing but you're right in that is opening up a whole new topic that we probably don't have time to explore on this thread. Overall I'd say I have massive respect for anyone campaigning and trying to bring to wider attention issues around poverty, race and gender equality.
OK, so I think the threads still rolling so I would like to add that - as much as I've been involved in the 'industry' for a very long time and feel I'm aware of industry and cultural bias - when Lauren Hill recently raised the fact that The Surfers Journal basically covered white male surf history I can hold my hand up and say this was something that I'd not noticed previously - but that now seems blatantly obvious, so this is a journey. I know I was instantly changed by the experience of going to Cancer Alley and spending time with the community there, but how this all affects me in the wider context I guess I'll only know as this moves forward. Thanks for a really interesting question. It has made me think.
Thanks for taking the time to think about this, Chris, and to respond again.
As you say, it's super important that these issues don't become about the storytellers (noting that I've not seen the film yet so have only heard your voices so far, hence my question), but I also think it's interesting to hear about the effects of this work on the folk doing it. How we're changed might be of secondary importance, but is definitely important and I appreciate your reflections on it. I'm really looking forward to seeing the film when I can, and to following the impacts on wetsuit production as they (hopefully!!) gain momentum. Thanks again!
Hi guys, firstly just want to say how much this shocked me and I will definitely be re-addressing my wetsuit choices from now on. I was previously pretty unconvinced by the yulex originally (and put off by the price) but listening to this podcast has made it a no-brainer to switch when I get my next suit.
My question is... how do you address wetsuit production at the more budget end of the scale- e.g. what you can buy in beach shops and stalls for the summer beach-goers etc.? Do you see change trickling down after the issue within the surf industry is resolved? Or do you think that there will be so much demand at the budget end that neoprene production will continue on the same scale? Also, do you think more can be done to focus on wetsuit repairs from the bigger companies? At the very least repairing wetsuits instead of pushing people to replace with the newest suit could be a great start?
Thanks Danielle, that's an important question. I'll address repairs first. A good friend of mine took his suit to be repaired at Bodyline in Newquay and they will replace damaged or torn Neoprene panels with Yulex panels - which I think is great. Hopefully if everyone pushes for that then there'll be no need for them to use Neoprene for repairs anymore.
Secondly there will be more Yulex suit factories coming on line in the future and hopefully that will address the range of suits available. I think if your favourite brand isn't producing a Yulex suit in the category you'd like - ie for Groms, ask them why.
Hi Danielle, I'm no business man but actually a huge sportswear company is going all Yulex as we speak and their market is the budget end so it must be stacking up? That is in Europe however, cheap neoprene suits made in with profit as the sole motive will probably be around for a long time I suspect.
Again we have to mention Patagonia, they have a full repair service, It is a former garage with equipment and a few staff fixing suits mostly from wear and tear, not a huge investment surely big brands could do the same?
Firstly I would like to thank Matt for leading me to the London Surf Film Festival to witness this incredible eye opening feature. Looking Sideways has lead me on a different path in life, now with my eyes open.
Secondly thanks to Lewis and Chris for raising awareness of the process and damage caused by the creation of our wetsuits.
When I watched the film, it was with a very heavy heart. I had taken my wife to the festival, who doesn’t surf btw. She said that was a heavy movie to watch, but the outcome is that she will try her utmost to avoid any neoprene products from now on.
I don’t know how to convert the masses, even my friends within the surf community are hard to steer away from neoprene, not because they do not care, but because they cannot afford the cost of a top end suit. I have tried to express to them that if you buy quality, you will have to replace it less frequently.
Hopefully some very high profile individuals within the watersports community will get on this quest with you.
I hope the ripples that you have started grow to the force of Nazare.
Hi Simon, thanks for your question and positive words. Talking to the industry we are hopeful the cost of Yulex suits will quickly be more than competitive in relation to Neoprene suits - but also that brands will offer Yulex suits throughout the range. Also - and Chris Hines talks about this in the film - brands need to start looking at not just the bottom line, but the triple bottom line, which takes into account environmental and social costs of products they produce.
Hi Simon, thank you for that it means to us a lot that the film can have an impact on an audience.
We would love high profile support for the project, it was disappointing that JJF is using neoprene for his Florence Marine X wetsuits, we reached out to discuss but no joy as yet
Keen to hear more on your thoughts about the surf media, and their unwillingness to publish articles on your story.
Having helped out Surfers Against Sewage for years I was always grateful for the support we received from the British surf media, but I guess we didn’t pay for the advertising space and we were necessarily at odds with the brands that were.
I was gutted to hear that they had blanked you.
Was their reaction what you expected, and can you understand their decision?
Morning Cliff, good question. I know this has been pitched many times and turned down, despite how prescient the topic is. I suspect there has been no overt threat from advertisers, but perhaps a desire from editorial staff not to upset brands. I know there are now publications who are hopefully going to run with the story so perhaps this will change?
Good morning Chris
Was the reaction the same from mainstream media? Do you know if the story has been pitched around there?
As we know, the desire for change often comes from that middle England sweet spot.
As we roll out screenings our aim is to work with mainstream media who are more open to the story. The truth about Cancer Alley is shocking and if you Google it there has been a lot of coverage for example The Guardian did a year long series of reports. No one so far tied the problems to the products. Neoprene is widely used not just in surfing so if we can get the surf industry to change, hopefully the leisure industry will change and we can all build momentum.
The health and racism issues are shocking. I’d never really understood environmental racism until listening to this story.
Will this continue to happen until legislative change happens in the USA?
How much of the neoprene supply goes to the surf industry?
The environmental racism angle is truly shocking and quite blatant. The US legal system is so mired in politics that I have little hope that things will change in the short term. I think that it is consumers and brands that can make the difference. Unfortunately the way the US operates it is down to the power of the dollar. Any right minded person would have wanted a company like Denka closed down when the pollution issues came to light. That surf brands are doing business with them, rewarding them by putting money in their pockets, is a scandal. As companies are made aware of where their chloroprene rubber comes from many will change - but how bad would it be if surf brands were the last to change?
But this is the most damning thing - nearly all surf brands are getting their Neoprene / chloroprene rubber from Denka.
How is this ok. At what point and what needs to happen for humans to change the way we think about ethically made wetsuits.
This coverage is a starting point, what needs to happen now. What can we all do besides buy ethically when the problem seems bigger than just purchasing a wetsuit or anything neoprene related.
Is it going to take a huge surfing brand to make a stand and accept responsibility for there actions and elite surfers to also make a stand for their sponsors immoral actions.
Hi Owen, you are right. There are many complex issues around Cancer Alley involving race, poverty, politics and naked capitalism. But by highlighting this issue and pressuring brands to switch to natural rubber we begin a process of moving away from this harmful petrochemical and the the next users of Neoprene come under pressure. Also, surf brands are in effect gaslighting us with the greenwashing they put out about their wetsuits. If they are made from Neoprene they are made from horrendous chemicals.
Also, your point about elite surfers is very good and is something we are working on.
It’s amazing that this is finally getting media coverage. I can’t quite believe it’s been the elephant in the room for so long it’s like DuPont and Teflon all over again 🤬 so sad like it’s allowed to happen to the extent humans and the environment are seriously affected.
Surfing I guess is a small cog in the neoprene production.
I mean it’s even used to keep your stubby cool in Australia. How messed up is that !!!
It’s got me thinking and I thank you for that. 🙏
Thanks Owen, yes, surfing is a small cog comparatively - but it's still a multi-billion dollar industry. Many are also part of corporate structure with other leisure brands that utilise Chloroprene Rubber in their products. If we can get surf brands to change, then hopefully the leisure brands will follow. And maybe we can get people to think about the other products they purchase. You'd be amazed how many people get in touch and say things like 'I never realised but my cycling gloves have Neoprene in them' or 'my wellies have Neoprene in them.'
Also interested in how everyone feels about the pricing of natural rubber suits.
The larger brand suits are very expensive still. Possibly too expensive for the average summer beach user to afford, especially if buying for the whole family.
Given that suits cost much the same to make for natural rubber and neoprene, should brands be making more affordable suits? I know that comes with economy of scale, but currently most “Yulex” suits must be well over £200.
A couple of good points here Cliff. Firstly wetsuits shouldn't be too cheap as we have become to view them as almost one season disposable items. But also Yulex suits should be cheaper as the raw materials are cheaper than Chloroprene Rubber. Prices will come down very quickly due to a combination of scalability and consumer press. BTW the brands using Yulex are not keeping the price of Yulex suits high. I think they would like to see prices come down also.
I agree. Prices come down and they will sell more suits. Better for everyone
There’s a perception that Yulex suits don’t perform as well as neoprene, although you make the point many athletes are wearing Yulex. How can the industry change this perception?
I think the surf media should run a proper review on wetsuits. They always do the summer and winter wetsuit guide but they typically cut and paste from the brands advertising blurb.
The older Yulex suits were pretty stiff to be fair, but the newer ones are fantastic.
I believe the price point is the real barrier to larger sales of Yulex suits.
There's acknowledgment that early iterations of the Yulex suits weren't perhaps great and maybe that has effected peoples views. I wear a Yulex suit and for me it's as good as the Neoprene suits I always used to wear. I'm sure Lewis will agree. As a surf photographer in places like Scotland and the Northeast - that's one of the most demanding environments for a suits. But I think you hit the nail on the head Jojo with the word 'perceptions'. Also the fact that many 'athletes' on the world tour have been wearing Yulex but we haven't been told I think also has an effect. I think there's an acknowledgement from many brands now that Yulex is as good as Chloroprene Rubber.
Do you think that the film will do for ethical surfing products what Black Fish did to the sea life centres?
Hi Chris, thanks for the question. We certainly hope so. Surfing prides itself on being ethical and 'green', using 'sustainability' to help sell products - but nearly all brands are using Chloroprene Rubber in the suits. Reading through the green promises and sustainable pledges the brands make you have to wonder how they think this is sustainable. Hopefully in a few years we'll all look back and wonder why it took so long for brands to open up and level with us and make the change - and hopefully Neoprene suits will be looked upon in the same way as sea life centres.
I'm curious about the scalability of Yulex as a replacement for neoprene. Given it's a plantation product, demand growth would imply land issues in tropical areas. Do you worry that we're potentially replacing one set of problems with another?
Hi Paul, that's a super important question. Yulex is FSC certified so that the natural rubber that goes into wetsuits comes from majority small holders working in a sustainable way. New capacity has to be brought online in a way that complies with this so no clear cut etc. Having spoken at length with Jeff and Liz at Yulex we know that there is enough capacity currently for all the brands to switch, and they are working to bring more online in a sustainable way. BTW - we have no vested interest in Yulex - the film is completely independent.
I also know that they are keen to move towards a model that encourages land owners to operate not just sustainably but regeneratively so encouraging biodiversity within small holdings. I think you're right to flag this up as this was one of our first questions. Obviously when you see the miles of palm oil monoculture in Indonesia or Malaysia it's quite shocking - so it was reassuring to know that this is not the case with Yulex rubber.
Thanks for the replies Chris. I also wonder if you came across any other neoprene alternatives during the making of the film, any other startups working in this space?
That's super important also. Innovation will definitely drive better products. Yulex will become better than the best Neoprene available today and I know there are small brands looking at other alternatives. I think as long as we keep the products environmentally responsible that's a great thing.
I’ve got a couple.
Has anyone from any of the big wetsuit brands reached out with messages of support ‘off the record’, or has it been radio silence?
As creatives in the surf game it’s hard enough as it to make a crust. Did you worry that by going public with this it’ll make it harder to get budgets for future projects?
Thanks Chris
Hey Mark, thanks for the question. Part of our process in making the film has been to reach out to all the major wetsuit brands with a list of questions and to give them a right to reply. Some have blanked us, some have sent through some very ambiguous statements highlighting their many 'green credentials' such as thread made ocean plastics. I'll be honest, I expected more to hold their hands up and say 'this is terrible, we need to change.' I've been disappointed with the responses. I hoped that even if their consciences weren't impacted, they might view this as a commercial opportunity. A couple of brands have been very complimentary about Yulex and said they'd like to switch. You hear from one very senior player in the film. I still have hope that a brand will be the first to make the switch and then others will follow. We'll see.
Re being freelancers in the surf world, Lewis and I did laugh about this when we started, saying we'll probably never work in the industry again. The thing is, once you know about this, you can't un-know it. And sitting down with people in Reserve and hearing their stories is life changing. Is this a popular story - no, is it one we had to tell - yes.
Thanks mate, looking forward seeing (and sharing) it.
Hey, the attitude of the bigger brands so far is 'yeah its bad but the bean counters won't let us change' a cop-out really. I think change is coming but imho only because they feel they have to, kind of a token gesture maybe? The official right to replies so far have been disappointing so far.
I have not done much work with these brands before and when I have, it has been a struggle to get paid. Definitely after The Big Sea it would be hypocritical in the extreme for me to work with any brand not using natural rubber. This may lead to less work but if thats what it takes, we'll just have to deal with that.
My worry is that the 'Limestone' narrative of being more 'sustainable' and 'green' seems to be swallowed now, making it appear that the change that was needed to be made has been, when in fact its basically replacing like for like!
-What would you like to see from wetsuit brands to achieve transparency on the materials they use?
It would be a big step forward if we knew what is in a wetsuit and could make an informed choice but at the moment, I don't think the brands using neoprene will be transparent, it would be damning and hit them hard. eg 70-80% of this product is from cancer alley etc
I feel they use language and marketing to avoid transparency and tinker with minor aspects of their products like thread and lining to distract from the truth.
That's a great point Stephen. There is no Limestone in so called Limestone Neoprene. It is chemically exactly the same as petrochemical derived chloroprene rubber. If anything it is worse as the limestone is quarried using huge diesel machinery, then melted in huge electric furnace at two thousand degrees, to form the chloroprene. Also, the so called called 'limestone Neoprene' comes from Denka. The wording around these suits as being green and sustainable is disingenuous greenwashing. Brands need to stop this immediately.
Thanks for making the film! Very excited to see it!
My journey looking into a more sustainable wetsuit option on the market was always environment focused. Your work has opened my eyes to real people being effected. Hopefully this will be the catalyst for change and allow the net to be cast farther, even to some 'anti-tree hugger' types.
Thanks Stephen, if your new wetsuit is as good as, or better than your old Neoprene suit, be sure to tell your friends so we can dispel the myth that natural rubber isn't as good as chloroprene rubber.
I'll be spreading the word for sure!
https://snawve.com/pages/about-us
Looking to be a part of the future too - My research into a suit I wanted to buy led me to making my own one! - Bringing to market this year and aim to be a branded voice of transparency of what materials are available and should be used!
That's super interesting - keep us in the loop. Be keen to hear how you progress.
I was same as you Stephen. My choice of suit was 100% environmentally driven. I had no idea about Cancer Alley and how devastatingly harmful the process was to the workers there.
How could anyone argue for the continued production of neoprene knowing these truths?
“Capitalism kills” was never more true.
Hi Cliff, the workers might be an issue but the main focus of the issues around Cancer Alley is the local population. It's shocking too see that there is a school next to the Denka fence line.
And you know that Denka will frame that as a “positive”. On-site childcare available, or something similar.
Matt thanks for sharing your great platform for discussing all the details on this tragic story. *disclaimer I am a surfer tied to the Surf Industry and a wetsuit geek. How do we crack the greenwash ‘limestone’ as eco solution that the brands are using? They have brainwashed everyone on limestone as being eco and performance enhancing and have not linked Limestone suits to its production, nor its true environmental impact. x
Hi Gabe, the conversation around Limestone Neoprene is problematic. For me it is simple gaslighting of the consumer. The terms 'Eco-friendly' and 'Sustainable' are used by many brands, one claiming it's "more sustainable, better for the environment and better for athletes". which is patently not true. I think we all need to be calling out brands that use this language.
We have researched Limestone and will be trying to get the simple truth out as part of the campaign alongside the film, maybe an accompanying short?
We are trying to deal with Limestone in the Big Sea but it does not have the overtly racist aspect as it is made in Japan by Denka and we don't now the problems caused over there.
Environmentally, limestone neoprene is worse than petrochemical neoprene, I believe companies saying otherwise are lying and need to be called out
Thanks Chris and Lewis for making this film off your own sweat and tears and drawing everyone's attention to this.
The scary part (one of many) is the people working in these plants know they are risking their health, but it sounds as though they don't have the resources or the opportunity to move / work elsewhere. From the conversations you've had, what alternative options would they have if the factories were eventually shut down? Do you think there will ever be compensation or support from the wetsuit industry for the communities?
Yeah I think the people actually working in this Denka plant know the risks, there are signs up inside saying 'Beware Cancer risk' they use PPE and the vast majority are contractors from elsewhere who have decided to take the paycheck.
Denka is being pressured to clean up so it may become less profitable but its a long way from closing down. If jobs are lost? there are 200 or so other petrochemical plants on Cancer Alley so there is other work in plants that are not as damaging.
My concern is for the local residents who are being poisoned and have no option to move away, hopefully they can pursue compensation from Denka in the future?
Hi Matt, thanks for your question. As Lewis says, the local residents are our main concern. They have had no say in the opening of the plant or the levels of pollution. There is land around the Denka plant that could be utilised for other industries. The crazy situation is that a solar farm tried to open nearby providing green energy and jobs - but was blocked by local politicians. The whole system is currently so tilted towards the petrochemical industry.
Thanks for the replies. Really looking forward to seeing the finished film and spreading the word.
Does this not reflect the wider issue we have with the whole topic of sustainability. It’s to big at the consumer level E.G, “it’s over there so not my problem”. “How can I make a difference”. At the industry level, pricing won’t change unless it happens at scale, so we need more manufacturers to use their impact. And I think this is, the “hold the mirror up” moment, surfing has issues, and the industry at all levels need to hold its hands ups. Blank cheques against nature have been written for to long. So my question, how can this story be used to develop a platform for cultural and industry change? People will need direction, so what’s the next step? How do we make this digestible, so that smaller change impacts scale.
Hi Christian, Denka are determined to protect their profits with no regard the damage caused to the environment and people thought their operation.
We hope the visibility of surfing can be used to start change, show there are real alternatives to polluting petrochemicals, perhaps surfing can take a lead? Thats a big ask however as for now, the majority of the surf industry is complicit in the distress caused by chloroprene production, they all know neoprene is bad, but don't really want to dig into it and aren't inclined to make an change if it impacts profit
Hey guys, thanks for making this film, I'm looking forward to seeing it.
My question is about production and switching to Yulex (or another alternative if there is one).
In my experience things have to be made easy to convince people to change their choices.
If a brand wanted to switch, would it be an easy enough to manage in terms of the production and costs linked to production? Is there enough manufacturing capacity and materials for the mainstream brands to switch for example? If we can show them the path to switching is possible - easy even - than I think there is real hope that the bigger brands might change.
As far as I know Patagonia did a lot (all?) of the development of Yulex and made the information freely available so others could follow so it feels like there is hope there.
What are your thoughts on this and have you looked into it?
One thing I think would be a great to see is a breakdown of the costs of production for neoprene vs Yulex wetsuits and other products. I think if people can see there's little or no difference in the cost and quality then there's way brands can use that as an argument. Do you think Patagonia or Finisterre would be willing to show these figures to help convince brands to switch?
Super interesting hearing you talk about it on the podcast. Great to hear really important topics being covered, so rare in surfing!
Let me know if I can help in any way with finishing and spreading the word of course!
Hi Owen, At the moment the only option for a top notch wetsuit is Yulex, the big brands could have invested in that (or something else?) from the start but they rejected it as r&d costs, hence the association between Yulex and Patagonia
Any brand could have gone to ISPO in Munich in December and ordered Yulex, some actually did and will be introducing natural rubber into their ranges, whether that is a token gesture or a real shift remains to be seen
Shieco makes all the main wetsuits other than Rip Curl, (even Patagonia) and this monopoly has enabled prices to be distorted to retard the uptake of Yulex. I was amazed to find out that Natural rubber is a cheaper raw material than chloroprene rubber.
Yulex are setting up alternative manufacturing and expanding capacity to get around this. Big mainstream sportswear brands are going full Yulex, the capacity is now there
Patagonia etc wetsuits are perceived as expensive but they are top of the range so actually comparable price wise to the best on offer from Quik, Rip Curl etc I have had an old Yulex which is now wrecked but only after 5 yrs in the North Sea, they can last if u look after them, I cant say the same about rip curl, excel, billabong, that I have had.
I think the corporate structure of most big brands is a problem, the shareholders only care about profit and their dividends, the actual 'surfer' staff are stymied and inertia is the result.
Just looking through the Denka website. Unbelievably in their vision under core values it reads “we will respect diversity and create a safe and secure environment “
this was a powerful one. the podcast alone made me want to both throw up in my mouth as well as as recycle my neoprene rubber and seriously evaluate my BS environmental stance.
as someone who has tested and worn patagonia suits off and on since their inception, yulex is a game changer. also the repair service that brands like patagonia and finisterre provided is critical to closing the loop. and hats off to other brands like Seaa and Billabong for embracing yulex in this "open source model."
regardless of surf media or hype the biggest challenges to adoption i see are:
1) even if you want to be in and are educated to value, the wetsuit fit changes each year seemingly (patagonia looking at you) so if you cannot go to a local retailer or corporate store, you are left guessing your size or ordering multiple sizes and returning the ones that do not fit (that environmental impact on shipping alone is significant).
2) the yulex rubber is said to perform and flex similar to "regular" rubber yet the suits I have worn and tested over the years always is less flexible and heavier. if there is a version that truly performs at the same level as the "high end" rubber currently available, those yulex suits should be released into the marketplace. as the only way to change stubborn surfers and their behaviors is to start with the influential or those where money is not the concern, and performance is the priority.
3) price and distribution are a concern to get to the mass market but surf is still a pyramid model where everyone is influenced (even the beginner) less by price and more by performance and pros. the only exception I can see is SUP and wave storms.
Hi hoon, I didn't know about the size thing and shipping is always an issue but we have been told the top pros wear Yulex in competition, J-Bay, Bells etc I was amazed, why don we know? why didn't they market on that?
Problem is, if they promote how good Yulex is now, who will buy the 98 % of their range that is not Yulex?
yup which is why I think it needs to get out to the right "influencers" or "ambassadors" if they will not push the pros' angle. I mean at the end of the day it's cool to see people riding Kelly's boards (as an example) but expoxys unfortunately don't work well here in stiff offshore winds at our local breaks hence why most are still on PU boards. similar yet different analogy of the same problem (eg PU's toxic nature)
Hi Hoon, thanks for your question. There are many preconceptions about Yulex and we don't use the film to tell people how good Yulex is - it is actually one of the biggest 'main' brands that does this. They themselves admit "Yulex is now as good as, if not better than Neoprene". And this is with development spearheaded by a few small pioneers. I think once the bigger brands start pushing in this direction we will soon have wetsuits cheaper, more environmental, longer lasting and better performing. Speaking personally I do have a Yulex wetsuit that is excellent, good stretch and fits well. Sizing is different, but over the years I have found different brands suits can be different sizes.
One way forward might be to create a certification mark for the Yulex rubber suits which clearly states that no human harmful emissions were generated in the making of this product. The yulex product should then make a campaign out of this using some top young surfers who want to associated with non neoprene products.
Hi James, one of the reasons behind the film was to offer people the facts about wetsuit production, so that everyone can then make an informed choice. This is something we feel strongly has been denied to us so far. We don't have an agenda to push Yulex - it's simply that it happens to be very good alternative. I think Lewis and I both feel that we have been complicit in what is happening in Louisiana because we have been buying products linked to Cancer Alley. If we had been informed and given that choice we would wouldn't have. I think it's time everyone cut out the greenwashing and was straight with the consumer.
Thanks Chris appreciate your candour. Be sure and email me your details as I am keen to help out through our Foundation
Hi James - Many thanks. I believe we emailed yesterday but will do so again as I know sometimes things get caught in spam filters. Look to forward to talking more.
after wearing yulex from patagonia and finn, it is heavier and less flexible. I still use it as it is important to me. but I notice it esp after my shoulder injuries - getting in and out of the suit as well as paddling.
if there was a yulex suit that performed at the same flexibility as say e4 or e5 or others, would be a game changer.
people also tout the Japanese yamamoto. I don't see it as warmer but it is more flexible than what we currently have available to consumers.
I think the consensus in the industry is natural rubber will pretty much be on a par performance wise with Neoprene very soon, if it isn’t there already. Ultimately Yamamoto Neoprene is still made with chloroprene chips sourced from Denka.
Hey Guys! amazing episode.
I have quoted your part about the automotive industry actually acknowledging the problems ahead vs surf who are ignoring it, loved that part.
Two questions :
1) so is the only option we should be looking at is the Patagonia Yulex suits?
2) The firewire boards are part of eco board project - is this thing legit?
Thanks for your work!
Thanks for that Jonathan, stoked, yeah the car industry ethos was a surprise to me
I don't know enough about boards other than its a similar paradox, the majority of production has not changed for such a long time, I will explore
There are more coming out all the time but I know Finisterre and Patagonia are fully all Yulex. If u buy a Billabong Yulex, u get natural rubber but are supporting a company who still profits from chloroprene
right that was a big one that you guys brought up! the yamamoto perception that it is not the same factory as the others. that misnomer is huge right now. appreciate everything you guys are doing.
I listened to this podcast and just found myself glad that I was in surgery so I would t even consider getting in the ocean! The thought of putting a neoprene wetsuit on made me feel sick! Actually nauseous. I saw my dad, I saw family, I saw so many black and brown people that are dispensable and irrelevant. It made my heart hurt! As a surf club owner who works with diverse communities and refugees we get donated suits frequently which is incredible and we will continue to pass those on - but I can’t bear the thought of buying a wetsuit for myself, my daughters or any girls and women we surf with without a knot in my stomach.
I appreciate this is not a constructive or a question or a anything other than emotional but it needs to be emotional and people need to be affected by it to take action. The cost is a barrier yes, but I would rather sit and save for an extra paycheck than have another life on my conscience.
Thanks so much for bringing this to a wider audience
Hi Yvette, thanks for your comments. The history of racism in this region is so shocking and it’s no coincidence that the plant was built there. The local activists are incredibly eloquent and active and it makes my blood boil that this story has not surfaced in the surf community until now. As you say, this pollution impacts on a multigenerational level from grandparents to young children at school. Hopefully surfers can lead the change through pressure on brands - either individually or together.
How can the plant workers for Denka directly benefit from wetsuit brands switching to Yulex (or other equivalent)? Is there potential for concerned consumers to create further misery for this group of people?
Hi Ben, the truth is very few local people work at the plant. Most workers live elsewhere and commute. So the plant doesn’t even bring jobs.
I’m looking forward to seeing the documentary. I’m grateful for filmmakers like you, who are committed to presenting us with uncomfortable truths. There is so much greenwashing in surfing and as good as the industry and culture has always been at ignoring it, I think (and hope) it’ll be increasingly hard to do so. Am I too utopian? Do you think large scale change can be achieved by the surf industry and its customers or ultimately will a greater (legislative) intervention be needed? ✊🏻
Hi Ben, that’s a good point, I think we all need to start calling out the large scale greenwashing that is prevalent in the surf industry. What does sustainable mean in relation to a Neoprene wetsuit yet you read it all the time.
I’ve got two questions for you which I hope don’t come across as rude or dismissive – they’re absolutely not intended to be, but they were hard to word. The discussion of the toxicity of chloroprene is a really important issue and helps highlight the complexity of transitioning to more sustainable products is because so many actors are involved from consumers to producers to media to communities to ecologies.
There is a lot of shock and frustration from listeners and commenters that surf media haven’t taken up this story – from listeners and from you guys. For any of us who’ve worked on activism on multiple, intersecting issues in surfing for a long time, I imagine we felt much less shock (although equal frustration). In a way, it feels like your storytelling and the emotions you centre in your discussions, are establishing a way for lots of men to connect with multiple issues in a way many of them have avoided. (I hope the bigger point I’m trying to make is clear in that sentence, which is doing so much dancing around the words I want to use.) So I’m wondering what impact that’s had on how you guys think about all the other issues that surf media have avoided publishing on, how it makes you reflect on what else has been brushed aside, and how you think your experience will change your participation in activism more broadly.
My second question is about the effects of stopping Denka’s production on the financial wellbeing of the community who have relied on them. (And you might have talked about this in your discussion, but I didn’t re-listen before writing my question, sorry!). I have no doubt it will be hugely important on the community’s health for production of neoprene to stop. This is not contestable. But while most of the questions here about the sustainable production and costs of Yulex, I wonder if Denka is a big employer in the community and what impact their closure would have when the production of neoprene folds? We can feel better about our transition as consumers but will that have financial implications on the community? Who carries the financial burden of change is part of environmental racism too.
Thanks for your work on the film and your energy on continuing to engage with questions.
Hi Rebecca, thanks for your questions. There are so many issues covering poverty, race and equality that impact the local community that it’s shocking. We haven’t shied away from the fact that the surf industry is overwhelmingly white, middle class and male - a massive contrast with the community in Reserve. I think there will be elements of the surf media that will run with this story and others that will ignore it, but all we can do is our best to inform people of what is happening. Hopefully it starts a wider conversation about issues that arise. Re your second point, talking to the local community they told us very few people who live close to the plant work there. They would like to have either new industry, or traditional industry that doesn’t create toxic pollution.
There is another important point which is why Denka has been spending huge sums of money fighting limits on emissions rather than spending that money on technology to reduce their emissions. This to me demonstrates the type of company surf brands are ultimately doing business with.
Hi Rebecca, Chris has pretty much said it but we found a lot of established surfing (media and industry) to be be quite happy with the status quo. I've been asked why I want to get this this story out? why not just leaves things be and not cause any hassle? This has come from the white, male, middle class and involved in surfing for a long time and happy with the was surfing is/was. The surfing demographic has obviously changed and continues to do, maybe its time for a shakeup to reflect this?
Denka won't release figures as they use their supposed benefit to the local economy to justify themselves but I've been told the only locals who work there are security guards.
Thanks to both of you for these thoughtful answers. I guess my first question is really asking about the impact (beyond the issue in the film) of all this on you both in terms of becoming an activist and how that will play out from here on. How has experiencing the challenges of getting these issues heard challenged you or caused you to reflect on activism in various forms of surf media, and the politics of that? Has it made you think about the activism of others on different issues that you might not previously have paid as much attention to? Masculinity weaves through that, I think... Anyway, it's a tough question, I know, and maybe a bit much for now. But I’m super interested to hear your thoughts one day when you’ve had time and space to reflect.
Yes, some great points raised there and as you say it's a very complex issue. I guess both Lewis and I have been very conscious about the film not being about us and more being about giving a platform to the local community so they can speak to the wider surfing world about their lived experiences. We're very aware that as white, middle class males we are starting from a position of privilege.
On a personal level I'd like to think that I've always been an activist - but then I'm sure everyone would. I have always had strong views on issues around race and gender in surfing but you're right in that is opening up a whole new topic that we probably don't have time to explore on this thread. Overall I'd say I have massive respect for anyone campaigning and trying to bring to wider attention issues around poverty, race and gender equality.
OK, so I think the threads still rolling so I would like to add that - as much as I've been involved in the 'industry' for a very long time and feel I'm aware of industry and cultural bias - when Lauren Hill recently raised the fact that The Surfers Journal basically covered white male surf history I can hold my hand up and say this was something that I'd not noticed previously - but that now seems blatantly obvious, so this is a journey. I know I was instantly changed by the experience of going to Cancer Alley and spending time with the community there, but how this all affects me in the wider context I guess I'll only know as this moves forward. Thanks for a really interesting question. It has made me think.
Thanks for taking the time to think about this, Chris, and to respond again.
As you say, it's super important that these issues don't become about the storytellers (noting that I've not seen the film yet so have only heard your voices so far, hence my question), but I also think it's interesting to hear about the effects of this work on the folk doing it. How we're changed might be of secondary importance, but is definitely important and I appreciate your reflections on it. I'm really looking forward to seeing the film when I can, and to following the impacts on wetsuit production as they (hopefully!!) gain momentum. Thanks again!
Hi guys, firstly just want to say how much this shocked me and I will definitely be re-addressing my wetsuit choices from now on. I was previously pretty unconvinced by the yulex originally (and put off by the price) but listening to this podcast has made it a no-brainer to switch when I get my next suit.
My question is... how do you address wetsuit production at the more budget end of the scale- e.g. what you can buy in beach shops and stalls for the summer beach-goers etc.? Do you see change trickling down after the issue within the surf industry is resolved? Or do you think that there will be so much demand at the budget end that neoprene production will continue on the same scale? Also, do you think more can be done to focus on wetsuit repairs from the bigger companies? At the very least repairing wetsuits instead of pushing people to replace with the newest suit could be a great start?
Thanks Danielle, that's an important question. I'll address repairs first. A good friend of mine took his suit to be repaired at Bodyline in Newquay and they will replace damaged or torn Neoprene panels with Yulex panels - which I think is great. Hopefully if everyone pushes for that then there'll be no need for them to use Neoprene for repairs anymore.
Secondly there will be more Yulex suit factories coming on line in the future and hopefully that will address the range of suits available. I think if your favourite brand isn't producing a Yulex suit in the category you'd like - ie for Groms, ask them why.
Hi Danielle, I'm no business man but actually a huge sportswear company is going all Yulex as we speak and their market is the budget end so it must be stacking up? That is in Europe however, cheap neoprene suits made in with profit as the sole motive will probably be around for a long time I suspect.
Again we have to mention Patagonia, they have a full repair service, It is a former garage with equipment and a few staff fixing suits mostly from wear and tear, not a huge investment surely big brands could do the same?
Firstly I would like to thank Matt for leading me to the London Surf Film Festival to witness this incredible eye opening feature. Looking Sideways has lead me on a different path in life, now with my eyes open.
Secondly thanks to Lewis and Chris for raising awareness of the process and damage caused by the creation of our wetsuits.
When I watched the film, it was with a very heavy heart. I had taken my wife to the festival, who doesn’t surf btw. She said that was a heavy movie to watch, but the outcome is that she will try her utmost to avoid any neoprene products from now on.
I don’t know how to convert the masses, even my friends within the surf community are hard to steer away from neoprene, not because they do not care, but because they cannot afford the cost of a top end suit. I have tried to express to them that if you buy quality, you will have to replace it less frequently.
Hopefully some very high profile individuals within the watersports community will get on this quest with you.
I hope the ripples that you have started grow to the force of Nazare.
Hi Simon, thanks for your question and positive words. Talking to the industry we are hopeful the cost of Yulex suits will quickly be more than competitive in relation to Neoprene suits - but also that brands will offer Yulex suits throughout the range. Also - and Chris Hines talks about this in the film - brands need to start looking at not just the bottom line, but the triple bottom line, which takes into account environmental and social costs of products they produce.
Hi Simon, thank you for that it means to us a lot that the film can have an impact on an audience.
We would love high profile support for the project, it was disappointing that JJF is using neoprene for his Florence Marine X wetsuits, we reached out to discuss but no joy as yet