The snowboarder and protester on riding one of Europe's last secret corners, direct action for Just Stop Oil, and why we should be worried about the erosion of our civil liberties.
Loved Callum's points about climate change feeling abstract. I think that is especially the case in some parts of Europe and the UK. I was driving through Devon last summer, looking at the lush trees and grass and abundant water and shade and it struck me that it would be so very hard to think about climate change when you live in such a place. As Callum points out, the main sense is one of loss - of snow, of cold, of absolute certainty. In the Pacific it's one of actual loss - of land, of home. In Australia it's more like amplification of the intense weather in many places - of fire, flood drought, and heat. And yet we're still largely inactive and apathetic here. People in the Pacific have been engaging in direct action at us for so long and we ignore them. I have no answers, but I really enjoyed the chat, and hearing about direct action as one approach that is necessary among the many, many approaches we need.
But I wonder, Callum, what you think about how direct action is also often quite local and located, when climate change is so global. Is it possible to make a call to action to folk for whom the realities are abstract? Maybe some of the forms of protest related to the violence being carried out in Gaza are an example of this? Or maybe that's where the recording/filming and sharing on various platforms comes in? Or maybe it's just about getting people talking where you are? Anyway, I hope that question makes sense?
Hi Rebecca, thanks for the comment. I think you make a really good point about the realities being abstract and I believe that's the most important challenge we face - not just for direct action but also more generally in just engaging people. I think it once again comes down to effective communication - how can you communicate to people that although the realities of the climate crisis for people in countries like the UK are abstract (at the moment) there are specific companies and people in power who are the ones we need to hold to account. I think also for people to understand much more clearly that the consequences of a heating world in the UK is not just more flooding and 40 degree summers. It's things like food shortages when drought destroys crops in other countries, climate migrant crisis and economic impacts like destabilisation of the insurance industry when they won't insure against climate risk anymore etc. I think it's also important for more people to understand that as climate impacts mount, it's likely that authoritarianism will be even more on the rise as people are drawn towards strong leaders with simple solutions as things get more destabilised. I think it's quite crucial that more people understand these aspects in countries like the UK so it becomes less abstract and "far off".
One point il add which I think its interesting in terms of localised direct action is that Just Stop Oil actually first started their protests specifically at oil terminals in 2022 and tried to make the call to action very easy to understand - they were going to the source of the problem that is causing the climate crisis. The problem is that the media barely reported on it because they didn't think it was particularly interesting (so there was not much conversation in society) and then the oil companies used their massive financial resources to go to court to take out injunctions on people taking action. If you breach these injunctions you can be liable for contempt of court and face lengthy prison sentences or unlimited fines (https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/shell-obtains-injunctions-against-uk-climate-protests-2022-05-06/).
The actions became more and more disruptive to the general public (blocking roads and disrupting cultural/sporting events) during 2022 because that was shown to get a lot of media attention and then create the conversation in society on the issue.
Im not sure if that answered the question but hope it made sense :)
It's even hard to communicate in the those places where it is less abstract. I was involved in a conversation the other day where someone asked the owner of a host of ski shops in Courchevel 1850 if they were worried about the future on the back of the lack of snow this winter.
The ski shop owners response was no. As more ski resorts close, we'll have more clients, we'll become more exclusive and we can charge more.
Matt has described skiing as the canary in the coal mine. It's just that. If we can't ski the climate has changed greatly. That means we'll have famine, drought and social unrest. Whether we can rent more skis, at higher prices is no longer of concern.
Maybe we have to use our energy to reach young audiences? Many older people are trapped in the system, that demands they make more money to pay for mortgages, cars and other trappings.
At least the young don't have those burdens. They have a ton of others but they're not trapped yet.
Thats quite a depressing story from Courchevel. A race to the bottom. Do you think that kind of thinking is prevalent throughout the industry? Agree with you that skiing is the canary in the coalmine and that if we can't ski then we have much bigger problems to worry about. Very much agree also that it's about reaching new and younger audiences with a clear message and call to action. For me in the outdoor industry I think that athletes are key here. They are the ones with the influence and ability to reach those audiences. Unfortunately I have a feeling that many of them at the moment don't really know the most effective way to use their influence to create positive change. I think many people are also scared to speak up for fear of being called a hypocrite etc.
Really good as always Matt. Really liked Calum's suggestion that we've got to "change the political weather, to make it safe for politicians to block new oil licences." I think that's the key outcome all our activities should focus on, and not just about oil. We need a much more thoughtful and collaborative political discourse. It's got to be safer to be a principled politician. We need some of our kind of people to feel that they could stand for election.
So I also agree with your insistence that we (in the outdoor industry) have to become more political, but I don't think it can or will come from any existing brands. The environmental imperatives are about degrowth, demand reduction, regeneration and true circularity, and all of those are contrary to the constant growth model we (nearly) all operate in at present.
That Adbusters article on degrowth that you shared a few weeks back feels incredibly prescient, but it's a really, really hard sell to virtually everyone except Swampy. You keep asking why our community is so often disengaged, and I think it is mainly guilt. We don't want to confront the reality that unless you really are actively being a significant part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Calum also talked about direct action starting conversations with his local community, and I think that's the key. The Green Party won loads of seats at the last big set of council elections because they went politely door-knocking asking what local things local people wanted and just listening. Turns out most of the things everyone wants are very green, and most people are not really as rabid as the newspapers they read.
There is hope, I think, but I don't see it coming from any of the existing structures. We all need to be a lot more Calum.
Thanks for the comment Tim. I really appreciate that you picked up on the part about direct action starting conversations, that's what it's all about. Most people just see the angry social media comments or the headlines in the Daily Mail and think that's all that is generated. It's really important to go a few layers down and see how it can generate engagement and conversation around an issue in society. I think you are right about the industry feeling guilty as well and this being a block to real engagement. It's a shame, I wish more of the outdoor industry could be honest about the challenges we face and the need for us to come together in collective action to solve them.
This was great Matt, really enjoying the direction the podcast is moving in at the moment.
Calum made loads of great points but the thing that made me think most was the idea that for many protesters, direct action is a last resort. Despite supporting the actions of peaceful protesters it's not something that immediately sprang to mind about them and will be a piece of info I take forwards.
On the other hand I felt that pushing the narrative around the potential suffering of those in the global south was less likely to resonate that Calum suggested. Sadly I think too many in the North are looking forwards to more English white wine and warmer summer days to care about this too much. Sadly I think increased flooding and climate disruption at home is more likely to focus minds.
All power to Calum. Hope he's getting some late season powder between court cases.
Hi Andy, thanks for the comment and for picking up on those points. I do really think it's important for people to understand the lengths a lot of people that are involved in more disruptive protest have gone before now to persuade those in power to listen.
I get what you mean as well about the communication about suffering in the global south maybe not resonating with people as much as I suggested. I don't think I really communicated this part very well in the podcast. I guess what I was trying to say is that for me I would like to see the outdoor industry communicate more the climate crisis as a human rights issue rather than just skiers missing some powder days in the Alps. I agree that people feeling the effects themselves is when they will get engaged but I also think it's up to us in the climate movement to offer pathways to action and engagement when these disruptive events are happening. Often im not sure if people know how they can involve themselves in action even when they see the effects happening right in front of them. cheers
Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions here. Much appreciated.
I totally agree with you about the outdoor industry comms. We're coming to the end of the winter season in the 3 Valleys and not a single post about the unseasonably warm weather we've had since December. Plenty of "it's still snowing" type reels though.
The human rights issue you raise should be more important too. I realise I'm being slightly glib talking about wine and summer holidays above, but I see hypocrisy and willful in the middle classes in the global north when it comes to the climate crisis. At a time when inequality is rife, it's unrealistic and unfair to think those less well off should be making huge efforts to combat the crisis. Decarbonising our society won't do enough if we don't reduce inequality at the same time. A renewably powered status quo won't be sustainable.
You final point is probably the most important. Most people don't know how to effect change. I know how differently I live my life compared to 10 years ago but I don't know that I've done enough to grow that influence or effect change. Your conversation with Matt is making me think again about that, so thank you.
Great topic to dig into cheers Matt for putting it together and Calum for your dedication to driving action. Building momentum within the demand for action is definitely critical!
From POWs side we do try and discuss a lot more than just the impact on skiing, whether it's more directly related such as local economies, to the glacier water needed by literal millions, and beyond. I do think starting with sports impacts can be a useful way in to gain the interest of people that have never really considered being active on climate/environment before though, for example it sounds like POW/Jeremy Jones helped get Calum more interested at the start. I'd agree it can be much harder to get brands on board with sharing/participating in Comms or campaigns the more you try to push the envelope on climate impacts content or actions to take.
Maybe we can consider a how we can add visibility to the knock-on impacts in our social media content - whilst it's definitely there in our longer training courses like Carbon Literacy Training for example, it's harder to get the breadth of the message across in social media without losing the uniqueness that helps it attract new people but any suggestions and feedback welcomed. Hopefully more of this level of discussion as well as people participating in training (nice one for ACM taking our CLT Matt) the more it'll become easier to get behind effective asks and actions.
Loved Callum's points about climate change feeling abstract. I think that is especially the case in some parts of Europe and the UK. I was driving through Devon last summer, looking at the lush trees and grass and abundant water and shade and it struck me that it would be so very hard to think about climate change when you live in such a place. As Callum points out, the main sense is one of loss - of snow, of cold, of absolute certainty. In the Pacific it's one of actual loss - of land, of home. In Australia it's more like amplification of the intense weather in many places - of fire, flood drought, and heat. And yet we're still largely inactive and apathetic here. People in the Pacific have been engaging in direct action at us for so long and we ignore them. I have no answers, but I really enjoyed the chat, and hearing about direct action as one approach that is necessary among the many, many approaches we need.
But I wonder, Callum, what you think about how direct action is also often quite local and located, when climate change is so global. Is it possible to make a call to action to folk for whom the realities are abstract? Maybe some of the forms of protest related to the violence being carried out in Gaza are an example of this? Or maybe that's where the recording/filming and sharing on various platforms comes in? Or maybe it's just about getting people talking where you are? Anyway, I hope that question makes sense?
Hi Rebecca, thanks for the comment. I think you make a really good point about the realities being abstract and I believe that's the most important challenge we face - not just for direct action but also more generally in just engaging people. I think it once again comes down to effective communication - how can you communicate to people that although the realities of the climate crisis for people in countries like the UK are abstract (at the moment) there are specific companies and people in power who are the ones we need to hold to account. I think also for people to understand much more clearly that the consequences of a heating world in the UK is not just more flooding and 40 degree summers. It's things like food shortages when drought destroys crops in other countries, climate migrant crisis and economic impacts like destabilisation of the insurance industry when they won't insure against climate risk anymore etc. I think it's also important for more people to understand that as climate impacts mount, it's likely that authoritarianism will be even more on the rise as people are drawn towards strong leaders with simple solutions as things get more destabilised. I think it's quite crucial that more people understand these aspects in countries like the UK so it becomes less abstract and "far off".
One point il add which I think its interesting in terms of localised direct action is that Just Stop Oil actually first started their protests specifically at oil terminals in 2022 and tried to make the call to action very easy to understand - they were going to the source of the problem that is causing the climate crisis. The problem is that the media barely reported on it because they didn't think it was particularly interesting (so there was not much conversation in society) and then the oil companies used their massive financial resources to go to court to take out injunctions on people taking action. If you breach these injunctions you can be liable for contempt of court and face lengthy prison sentences or unlimited fines (https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/shell-obtains-injunctions-against-uk-climate-protests-2022-05-06/).
The actions became more and more disruptive to the general public (blocking roads and disrupting cultural/sporting events) during 2022 because that was shown to get a lot of media attention and then create the conversation in society on the issue.
Im not sure if that answered the question but hope it made sense :)
A brilliant answer that really gets into the complexities. Thank you!
It's even hard to communicate in the those places where it is less abstract. I was involved in a conversation the other day where someone asked the owner of a host of ski shops in Courchevel 1850 if they were worried about the future on the back of the lack of snow this winter.
The ski shop owners response was no. As more ski resorts close, we'll have more clients, we'll become more exclusive and we can charge more.
Matt has described skiing as the canary in the coal mine. It's just that. If we can't ski the climate has changed greatly. That means we'll have famine, drought and social unrest. Whether we can rent more skis, at higher prices is no longer of concern.
Maybe we have to use our energy to reach young audiences? Many older people are trapped in the system, that demands they make more money to pay for mortgages, cars and other trappings.
At least the young don't have those burdens. They have a ton of others but they're not trapped yet.
Forgot to say! Brilliant episode Calum, and thank you for taking direct action.
Hi Gavin, thanks for the comment :)
Thats quite a depressing story from Courchevel. A race to the bottom. Do you think that kind of thinking is prevalent throughout the industry? Agree with you that skiing is the canary in the coalmine and that if we can't ski then we have much bigger problems to worry about. Very much agree also that it's about reaching new and younger audiences with a clear message and call to action. For me in the outdoor industry I think that athletes are key here. They are the ones with the influence and ability to reach those audiences. Unfortunately I have a feeling that many of them at the moment don't really know the most effective way to use their influence to create positive change. I think many people are also scared to speak up for fear of being called a hypocrite etc.
Definitely, on the athletes. The POW US did a detailed study showed how important that voice is in this community - amongst much else is here, well worth a look if you haven't already https://protectourwinters.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/POW_NeimandReport_v11.pdf
Really good as always Matt. Really liked Calum's suggestion that we've got to "change the political weather, to make it safe for politicians to block new oil licences." I think that's the key outcome all our activities should focus on, and not just about oil. We need a much more thoughtful and collaborative political discourse. It's got to be safer to be a principled politician. We need some of our kind of people to feel that they could stand for election.
So I also agree with your insistence that we (in the outdoor industry) have to become more political, but I don't think it can or will come from any existing brands. The environmental imperatives are about degrowth, demand reduction, regeneration and true circularity, and all of those are contrary to the constant growth model we (nearly) all operate in at present.
That Adbusters article on degrowth that you shared a few weeks back feels incredibly prescient, but it's a really, really hard sell to virtually everyone except Swampy. You keep asking why our community is so often disengaged, and I think it is mainly guilt. We don't want to confront the reality that unless you really are actively being a significant part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Calum also talked about direct action starting conversations with his local community, and I think that's the key. The Green Party won loads of seats at the last big set of council elections because they went politely door-knocking asking what local things local people wanted and just listening. Turns out most of the things everyone wants are very green, and most people are not really as rabid as the newspapers they read.
There is hope, I think, but I don't see it coming from any of the existing structures. We all need to be a lot more Calum.
Thanks Tim. As ever I appreciate how closely you’ve listened and how thoughtfully you’ve considered the things discussed. Hope to see you soon 🙏
Thanks for the comment Tim. I really appreciate that you picked up on the part about direct action starting conversations, that's what it's all about. Most people just see the angry social media comments or the headlines in the Daily Mail and think that's all that is generated. It's really important to go a few layers down and see how it can generate engagement and conversation around an issue in society. I think you are right about the industry feeling guilty as well and this being a block to real engagement. It's a shame, I wish more of the outdoor industry could be honest about the challenges we face and the need for us to come together in collective action to solve them.
Thanks for taking the time to reply mate - and keep up the good work. Hope your day in court was OK.
This was great Matt, really enjoying the direction the podcast is moving in at the moment.
Calum made loads of great points but the thing that made me think most was the idea that for many protesters, direct action is a last resort. Despite supporting the actions of peaceful protesters it's not something that immediately sprang to mind about them and will be a piece of info I take forwards.
On the other hand I felt that pushing the narrative around the potential suffering of those in the global south was less likely to resonate that Calum suggested. Sadly I think too many in the North are looking forwards to more English white wine and warmer summer days to care about this too much. Sadly I think increased flooding and climate disruption at home is more likely to focus minds.
All power to Calum. Hope he's getting some late season powder between court cases.
Hi Andy, thanks for the comment and for picking up on those points. I do really think it's important for people to understand the lengths a lot of people that are involved in more disruptive protest have gone before now to persuade those in power to listen.
I get what you mean as well about the communication about suffering in the global south maybe not resonating with people as much as I suggested. I don't think I really communicated this part very well in the podcast. I guess what I was trying to say is that for me I would like to see the outdoor industry communicate more the climate crisis as a human rights issue rather than just skiers missing some powder days in the Alps. I agree that people feeling the effects themselves is when they will get engaged but I also think it's up to us in the climate movement to offer pathways to action and engagement when these disruptive events are happening. Often im not sure if people know how they can involve themselves in action even when they see the effects happening right in front of them. cheers
Hey Calum
Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions here. Much appreciated.
I totally agree with you about the outdoor industry comms. We're coming to the end of the winter season in the 3 Valleys and not a single post about the unseasonably warm weather we've had since December. Plenty of "it's still snowing" type reels though.
The human rights issue you raise should be more important too. I realise I'm being slightly glib talking about wine and summer holidays above, but I see hypocrisy and willful in the middle classes in the global north when it comes to the climate crisis. At a time when inequality is rife, it's unrealistic and unfair to think those less well off should be making huge efforts to combat the crisis. Decarbonising our society won't do enough if we don't reduce inequality at the same time. A renewably powered status quo won't be sustainable.
You final point is probably the most important. Most people don't know how to effect change. I know how differently I live my life compared to 10 years ago but I don't know that I've done enough to grow that influence or effect change. Your conversation with Matt is making me think again about that, so thank you.
Great topic to dig into cheers Matt for putting it together and Calum for your dedication to driving action. Building momentum within the demand for action is definitely critical!
From POWs side we do try and discuss a lot more than just the impact on skiing, whether it's more directly related such as local economies, to the glacier water needed by literal millions, and beyond. I do think starting with sports impacts can be a useful way in to gain the interest of people that have never really considered being active on climate/environment before though, for example it sounds like POW/Jeremy Jones helped get Calum more interested at the start. I'd agree it can be much harder to get brands on board with sharing/participating in Comms or campaigns the more you try to push the envelope on climate impacts content or actions to take.
Maybe we can consider a how we can add visibility to the knock-on impacts in our social media content - whilst it's definitely there in our longer training courses like Carbon Literacy Training for example, it's harder to get the breadth of the message across in social media without losing the uniqueness that helps it attract new people but any suggestions and feedback welcomed. Hopefully more of this level of discussion as well as people participating in training (nice one for ACM taking our CLT Matt) the more it'll become easier to get behind effective asks and actions.
Would've listened and responsed sooner but I was enjoying a week off in the snow last week :)